Been there, Done that- Part II

[stardeb55]

I had not started a thread for Harley as of yet in the hopes that cc.net would return from the internet nether regions, but looks like that is going to be awhile, so I figured it's time.

When we last left off, Harley had another episode of GI upset, not nearly as severe as his gallbladder attack last fall, but due to some confusion with what my GP vet wanted to do with his lysodren dosage, along with the illness, I went ahead & had him stimmed about 5 weeks early. I must back up to refresh all of our memories about the lyso dosage. About 6 weeks ago, I discovered that Harley had dropped from 14 lbs. to 12.4 lbs for no apparent reason. With the weight loss, that put his current weekly lyso dose of 300 mg., at that point, over max dosage at 54 mg/kg. The GP vet told me that lyso had been know to cause weight loss, so he cut the weekly dose to 225 mg. Harley got sick about a week after the change in dose. With the stim, I also had a chem panel drawn as I was concerned about a possible kidney issue as I had noticed that Harley appeared to be drinking a lot of water, again. Anyway, the stim came back at 7.1 which was slightly lower than Feb.'s result. Harley has been fine running with a post of 7, & the vet doesn't want to attempt to take him lower because of the pre-existing gallbladder condition. Prior to the stim being done, the vet wanted to increase the lyso dose back to what it was. My response was, "HUH:confused:, if this is a Cushing's crash, don't we want to drop the dose even further?" The vet was insistent that it needed to be increased, so that's when I insisted on the stim. The chem panel did show an increased BUN, but a perfectly normal creatinine. When monitoring kidney function, you do look at both numbers, but the creatinine is the more important of the 2. The interesting thing was that Harley's T4 came back at 0.3. After talking to the vet, he added on the free T4 to make sure we weren't looking at a case of sick euthyroid. MIRACLES OF MIRACLES, Harley's free T4 came back perfectly normal. It's about time, the little guy & Mom caught a break.:D;)

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

I think Wylie is taking cues from Harley - Wylie had his GB attack end of Sept/beginning of Oct, I think about a month after Harley - and last week Wylie had some GI upset. It wasn't as bad as last time, he recovered more quickly, and based on an ultrasound, the IMS said it was not a GB attack or pancreatitis. I think I'm gonna have to keep up with your thread to anticipate what's gonna happen to Wylie:p.

-Susy

[Roxee'sDad]

Hi Debbie,
Good to hear Harley (and You) caught a break.

Now bear with me here for a second, the way I understand this is that the vet wanted to increase the dosage but due to your insistance a stim was done (5 weeks early) and a T4 along with a free T4 and since all came back okay. The dosage will remain the same (not increased) as the vet wanted to do in the first place?

Why did the vet think the dosage should be increased before the stim was performed?

This stuff is so complicated, I'm just trying to understand better, I'm glad you guys and gals are here.

John (Roxee's Dad)

[stardeb55]

Frankly, John, I don't understand the vet's line of reasoning to this day, & neither did Glynda. If there was any suspicion that this GI upset was Cushing's related, the dosage should have been cut down even further than what we had done the week before. I was so confused at that point in time, I felt more comfortable running the stim early to see just exactly where we were, rather than blindly adjusting the dose. This is especially true in light of the weight loss. So right now, the dosing scenario was the following:

Prior to weight loss: 300 mg/week, with a weight of 14 lbs., was 46.9 mg/kg. With the weight loss this dose now shot up to 54 mg/kg.

With the weight loss: 225 mg/week with a weight of 12.4 lbs., was 40.2 mg/kg.

With a stim result having dropped just a hair since Feb. '09, 7.4->7.1, I think, I suggested going up to 250 mg/ weekly, 44.6 mg/kg, the vet was agreeable to this dose. I was also concerned about dropping his mg/kg dose to 40 or lower as the little twerp unloaded on me late last summer when he was at something like 37 mg/kg. I actually, now, split his dose up as 75 mg, 100 mg, & 75 mg on a M, W. Fri. schedule.

The vet is the one who brought to my attention that lyso can cause weight loss, so I wasn't about to let him talk me in to going back up to 300 mg./weekly, especially with no stim. I had thought for about 6 weeks or so, that Harley just looked "bony" & felt "bony" to me. Petting him, you could clearly feel his hip joints, vertebrae, you name it. He had to go in for his rabies shot which is how we discovered that my suspicions about his weight were correct. The vet is the one who ordered the T4, which came back really low at 0.3. I think you have been reading enough to know that Cushpups can have a falsely low T4 reading due to sick euthyroid syndrome, so this is why the free T4 was done. It was perfectly normal, so we aren't dealing with hypothyroid, too.

I'm sure this is as clear as "mud". I still get very confused at times dealing with this dratted disease. I don't know what I'd do if I hadn't had the prior experience with Barkley, my lab tech background, or if I hadn't found all my friends at CC.net.

Debbie

[LuvMyMunchie]

Hi Debbie,

How is Harley feeling and doing weight-wise now? Maintaining, gaining...???? Munchie will gladly share his baby scale with Harley!!! :D

Louise

[stardeb55]

Hi, Louise! Harley acts like he feels pretty darn good. Can't give you a specific answer about the weight, I will probably run him in for a weight check tomorrow. I do think that he doesn't feel or look quite as "bony" as he did.

Debbie

[Lulusmom]

Hi Deb,

I'm happy to hear that Harley is doing much better. I think your plan to up the dose a bit is a sound one and I'm glad your vet agrees.

I was aware that dogs treated with Lysodren lose the weight they gained before treatment due to overeating, fluid retention and redistribution of fat but I have never read anything that mentions weight loss as a side effect of long term use of Lysodren. The next time you see your vet, can you ask him if this is based on his experience or is it something he researched. I am particularly interested because Lulu's weight has been up and down for the past nine months and both of the IM's she has seen in that time never mentioned Lysodren as a possible cause for her weight loss. :confused:

I really need to start a thread myself so I can share Lulu's experience here. It's been interesting to say the least. For a change, Jojo seems to be stable.

Glynda

[stardeb55]

Whooo Hoooo!

No more "skinny Minnie" for my boy, he weighed 13.0 lbs. this afternoon. This is up from 12.3 lbs. He still needs to gain about 1 lb.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

Good new Debbie,

I hope he continues to improve.

Scott

[LuvMyMunchie]

No more "skinny Minnie" for my boy, he weighed 13.0 lbs. this afternoon. This is up from 12.3 lbs.

Good going, Harley!! Keep up the good work. :D

Louise

[barney's mom]

Wow Debbie, that's awesome! 0.7 pounds is pretty significant for a little guy like Harley! Keep up the good work mom!

Cheryl

[stardeb55]

I picked up all of the most recent labs from 3 weeks ago, & it get's even better. I am grinning from ear to ear on this one.

ALT results-
2/5/09-304
4/7/09-67
Normal Range: 12-118

Alk Phos:
2/5-876
4/7-681
Normal Range: 5-131

Substantial improvement in the little twerp's liver function. He may, just yet, outlive me.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

My Harley's grinnin with ya:D:D:D
Good job Debbie Congrats with the good news:)
Lori

[forscooter]

Deb...

SO glad you got good news!!!!:D:D:D

You certainly deserve it! You have worked so hard for it! Congrats from all of us here!!!

Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Roxee'sDad]

Hi Deb,
Great news.....:D:D:D Congrats....:D:):D:)

Since I can't go back on your thread.. Is Harley on any supplements like milkthistle or is controlling the cortisol bringing down his ALK and wow what a drop in the ALP.:D

John (Roxee's Dad)

[stardeb55]

John, milk thistle, given daily.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

That's great news, Debbie!
Way to go Harley!:D

[stardeb55]

DOUBLE YAHOOOOOO!!!

Yesterday's weight check was 13.7 lbs, so Harley is back up to his "fighting weight".:D

Debbie

[Roxee'sDad]

Good Job Harley and Mom:D:D

That's almost a pound and a half:D Very good to hear:D

John (Roxee's Dad)

[barney's mom]

Oh Deb, that is so good to hear!!!!!!!!!


Barney and Cheryl

[stardeb55]

Well, the hard earned weight gain may not hold up for long. It's hunger-strike central at my house for pretty much the last 4 days. The only thing I've gotten Harley to eat is his Evo kibble mixed with meat flavor baby food for 2 meals. He wouldn't touch that tonight. I've tried both the beef & chicken canned food I have. Beef was mixed with kibble, chicken had nothing else. The little snot looked at me like he was highly insulted. I have tried, I think 2 or 3 different brand of canned food over the past month. He will eat them for about 2 weeks, then quit. This includes Merrick's which he ate really well for over 5-6 months last fall. I really don't think it's his teeth because he just had a dental in 2/09. He would not even touch the NutriCal paste tonight. When he gets to about day 4 of this, Mom starts getting stressed. I guess I will go across the street to Whole Foods in the morning & check out what they have to offer in the way of canned food.

At least, Chewbacca will eat anything I put down. As long as that boy gets 2 squares a day, plus treats, he's a happy little boy.

Debbie

[LuvMyMunchie]

Debbie,

How frustrating and worrisome for you!! Sure hope you can find something over at Whole Foods that will make Harley's taste buds happy.

Good luck on your quest!

Louise

[Wylie's Mom]

Would he eat boiled chicken breast with rice? That's Wylie's favorite (but of course, he also really liked it when I gave him the nasty, stinky raw green tripe).

Harley sounds like my neighbor's cat - when he turns up his nose, my neighbor opens a different flavored canned food and gives the "no good" food to the strays (but I guess you don't need strays with Chewbacca around!)

I hope you find something...he is drinking water & acting fine otherwise, isn't he? Doesn't look like any GI or GB issues?

-Susy

[stardeb55]

He's fine. Drinking, no vomiting, diarrhea, etc., just being a snot to drive me nuts. I just got back from my errands which included the Whole Foods trip. There are some dried chicken breast strips for treats in their pet food section which he will eat, so I bought another bag of those. I bought 2 cans of Newman's Own dog food as it appears to have gotten pretty decent reviews, & doesn't have much junk in it, all organic. We'll see in a couple of hours when it's time for supper.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Are the strips made in China? I have a hard time finding ones that aren't.

-Susy

[stardeb55]

Oops, forgot about that, & yes, they are, but both dogs have been eating them without a problem for about 6 weeks. So I think if there was going to be a problem, something would have shown up by now.

Debbie

The producer is Dogswell. I just took a look at their website , & they do have a letter posted from the CEO that guarantees product safety for what it's worth.

[Wylie's Mom]

I don't recall which brands were recalled or suspected, but I do remember this:
"Dog owners who feed their dogs chicken jerky products are asked to watch for these signs: decreased appetite (although some dogs may continue to consume the treats to the exclusion of other foods); decreased activity; vomiting; diarrhea (sometimes with blood); and increased water consumption and/or increased urination."

Just be careful (I know you are;))... I just remember reading comments on articles from people who's dogs had alleged issues/deaths due to brands that were not recalled yet...at that time, I do remember not finding anyone who blamed the Dogswell brand for their pups ills (I was contemplating getting that brand, but decided to just stop giving the jerky treats to Wylie 'cause I couldn't decide:mad:). I do recall, that it was mostly, if not all, small dogs that had the problems.

Fingers crossed that the little snot eats the Newman's Own:D.

-Susy

[AlisonandMia]

I wouldn't feed anything from China to any living thing I'm afraid! The really scary thing about this problem with the jerky treats is that no-one has been able to find what the contaminant that causes the problem is - but it ain't melamine. It seems that because the contaminant hasn't been found they are able to give these guarantees that there is nothing nasty in the stuff! Some of the companies who supply these treats (don't know which one(s) but Kathy (We Hope) does have that info at her fintertips) have been pretty aggressive when it comes to shutting down anyone who casts doubt on their products - even professional veterinary associations have had problems when they try to raise concerns!

It is pretty easy to make safe chicken jerky at home if you have a fan-forced oven and you can probably do it with a conventional non-fan-forced oven too. I make my own (using beef heart, not chicken because of the cost) and it works out really well - only problem is that the house tends to fill with flies.:eek::mad::eek:

Alison

[stardeb55]

Harley ate about 60-70% of his supper which is more than he has eaten at any one meal in the past 3-4 days. We are in the clear for now, so we'll see how long it lasts.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Yay Harley:D!!!

How's he eatin' now?

-Susy