new here with our dog zipp

[Tobysgirl]

Hi, our dog Zipp was diagnosed about two months ago. We have two vets, a holistic and a conventional; our holistic is our first vet, but he does not have a full-service office (he's in his 70s!) so we took Zipp to the conventional vet for a diagnosis, treatment, etc.

Zipp is eleven and a half years old; we adopted her almost three years ago from Almost Home Rescue. She had a horrible life in Arkansas, then was rescued by a wonderful woman who runs a great shelter. She was treated for heartworm, spent 11 months in the shelter, then four months in two foster homes in New England. She is a border collie/beagle mix, she rarely barks and never wags her tail, but she is just a super dog.

We had a terrible heat wave in July and the conventional vet thought it might have been the last straw as far as stress goes. They think Zipp has Cushing's as well, but we did not want to spend the money for diagnosis/treatment, and I will not leave her anywhere because she is very, very attached to me. Our holistic vet gave me some herbs that he uses for Cushing's.

Zipp's blood sugar has been very high since her diagnosis. Her fasting urine strip shows glucose of 1000; any time we've used a glucometer at the vet's, it's been 600 or 700. BUT, since she's been taking insulin -- currently at 10 units 3x daily (the conventional vet told us to reduce it, the holistic vet to slowly increase it when we were giving her 7 units 3x daily) -- she does not have excessive thirst or urination, her eyes are bright, her nose is wet, and she goes for walks on her own two or three times a day, exploring our fields and gardens.

When she was very ill, her appetite became capricious, which was highly unusual. She is now back to her usual beagle appetite. We feed her three times a day, either canned salmon, raw ground chicken carcasses, raw liver or beef, or high-quality canned dog food, plus ground vegetables or squash and supplements. She gets Organix treats or little biscuits after every shot.

What amazes me is that her sugar is still obviously high -- we borrowed a glucometer, put in a new battery, still doesn't work, have to decide whether to spend the bucks for one from the vet -- but she looks really good except for being thin and attracting fleas (big flea problem in this area this year). When she was diagnosed, we thought it was basically the end, but she is doing great. Someone told me that their cat had incredibly high sugar for seven years! Has anyone else had this experience? Does anyone have some good advice? Considering her age and history, we are very happy with how she is doing.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Welcome to you and Zipp to the forum

Glad Zipp is in your care. You are doing great with her

May I ask how much she weighs?

Can you post any glucose curves that have been done recently?

I feed and give insulin every 12 hours with a midday snack of green beans midday way at the 6 hour mark. Its not a full meal nor do I inject insulin 3 x day.

I also test his bg with my glucose meter its better and more accurate than just using urine strips.

Lets us know if you would like to learn more about hometesting.

As far as cushings goes theres a sister site to here k9cushings if you would like to read more or get advise

Glad you found us, others will chime in soon

[amydunn19]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

The feeding and dosing schedule is interesting - most dogs do well on a 12 hour schedule eating and getting insulin 12 hours apart. That is a general "rule" - many of our dogs have other conditions besides diabetes and all dogs are different. It seems like there would be some overlap since most insulins have a 12 hour duration unless you are using a short acting insulin but short acting insulin alone would probably not be a protocol any vet would suggest.

I am also wondering why your regular vet wanted to decrease insulin while your holistic vet wanted to increase insulin. Is there a curve your vet has done that you can post? I am wondering if your regular vet thinks he is getting too much and overdosing? That can cause high numbers - the body has a mechanism to release glucose from the liver when there is too much insulin.

Also, regarding diet, it seems you are feeding different proteins and also canned dog food at times. I feel like most of us get the best control from feeding the same food in the same amount at every meal. I do rotate proteins but I stick with the same type of food and I watch the portions and measure calories and ingredient labels. I use a kibble with a topper of canned or dehydrated food. Being just two months into this, I think you would be best to stick to exactly the same thing in the same quantity every day.

Regarding meters, I would strongly suggest home testing. You will be able to see how your dog is doing every day. The good news is you don't have to buy the glucometer from the vet. I use a human meter - the one touch ultra and buy strips on ebay. You can buy an animal glucometer online cheaper than your vet I bet if you want an animal specific one. Hopefully, someone will chime in with the website and the discount code for it. I never purchased the animal one. We do fine with our One Touch meter.

If we can get more info - type of insulin, weight of your dog and any curve numbers you might have, that would be helpful.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Hey there and welcome to you and Zip.

Very interesting that the numbers are that high and she still feels good.

I agree with what Mo and Amy have already said, the approach is a bit unconventional. Sometime unconventional is what is needed (believe me Ruby and I tried it all), but you really want a solid foundation/baseline to tweak things from. That is how all the changes and tweaks can be evaluated, by comparing them one at a time to the baseline.

A good starting point for a baseline is:
-food and insulin 12 hrs. apart
-feeding at the same time of day ( wiggle room of 1 hr. probably ok)
-food, same type and amounts (many weigh the food)

After about 5 days of consistenay a curve can be run.
A valid curve looks like this:
-testing just prior to food and insulin (this is called the fasting test)
-then testing every 2 hrs. up to the evening meal
-I would not have Zipp exercise the day of the curve*

The fasting test is one of the most important readings and is often missed at the vets. I imagine this is because it conflicts with either the clinic hours or the dog's feeding schedule. This is one really great reason to test at home...along with saving money and keeping Zip safe.

With the fasting number you will be able to see how much and how fast the food raises the bgs and therefore how well the food and insulin are balanced.

*Some dogs bgs can drop quite a bit with exercise. During the curve I would want to take that out of the equation. An curve without exercise will give you a nadir (bg low point), but if she exercises that day you won't know if the low point was exercise induced or not.

Cushings dogs often have insulin resistance as one of the hallmark symptoms. So if there is skepticism on one vets part about Cushings, that vet may be concerned that she is rebounding and thus the highs, while the vet that suspects Cushings is probably thinking she is insulin resistant.

I similarly had a holistic and conventional doctor. In this case I would be wary of using the herbs to treat possible Cushings unless I was home testing a fair amount and everything else was consistent. I think the herbs may be too much of an unknown to be safely pairing with insulin.

I have often seen folks coming here with suspicions of Cushings only to have those symptoms disappear when the diabetes was controlled.

We love as many details as you can give us; weight and type of insulin, ect.

Some insulins can be purchased at Walmart for $25 and syringes 12/100.

I have an Alphatrack2 meter that I am going to be offering up for a donation for a members dog who needs to be spayed. I will be starting a thread on that.

Tara

[Monsters Momma]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Hi and Welcome! I just wanted to add my welcome to the others...I couldn't possibly add to all the information that has been given to you! Hopefully, you'll find the support you need from the forum, I know I have!
Give Zipp a scratch from Vinny and me!
Mel

[Tobysgirl]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Thanks so much for everyone's input!!!

We feed Zipp 3x daily because when she was first diagnosed she couldn't eat very much at one time and she was accustomed to three meals a day. If we fed her a normal-size meal, she would throw up, so we fed her three small meals a daily and now she gets three moderate-size meals daily.

Zipp weighed 37 pounds last time she was weighed (beginning of September), which we were pleased with because she weighed 38 pounds last time she was weighed in July. That time she had lost 2 pounds from her weight the previous week. She should weigh 40-45 pounds, but we're content.

We're using Novolin insulin which the pharmacist suggested instead of the vet's recommended Humulin N. Doesn't it peak about 5 to 7 hours after injection? Do you all think one of the other insulins would be better?

The holistic vet told me the herbs for Cushing's could not harm her if she did not have Cushing's. The conventional vet who wanted us to decrease her insulin has never actually seen Zipp (he's the partner in the practice). I'm thinking of making an appointment for her to see the conventional vet who did see her, but the office is a long drive away and I am disabled. The conventional vet where I have taken my other animals would not see Zipp when the holistic vet diagnosed her diabetes (?), but HIS conventional vet would, and we were very impressed with the conventional vet's caring and competency.

I know a glucometer would be a good idea, but we thought we would be putting this dog down fairly quickly and even the conventional vet was not eager to sell us a glucometer because of how sick Zipp was. Zipp had full bloodwork twice which was what prompted the possible diagnosis of Cushing's.

We followed a raw diet with Zipp previously, and our holistic vet said the main thing is low carb. It would be handy to be able to feed kibble occasionally, but we believe in a highly varied diet for our dogs, by which I do not mean to insult anyone. Zipp varies her own diet by eating rodents, which are now referred to as a diabetic snack. She will steal them from the cats if she can. She has always been enthusiastic about food, except when she was very sick.

[k9diabetes]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Welcome to you and Zipp.

It is hard to maintain a diabetic dog who feeds in other ways/places. I realize it may not be something you can contain, but it's important to recognize that it could make it very difficult to control her blood sugar. "Farm dogs" for lack of a better term - or "Bog dogs" in the case of Murphy in Ireland years ago! - can wind up making themselves quite ill from ketoacidosis if they overdo it on the wildlife.

A meter would be very helpful in knowing when there is a problem whether her blood sugar is high or low and how high it is. You don't have to use an AlphaTrak meter. The OneTouch Ultra is a great meter for dogs is what we used daily with our dog's diabetes even though we had an AlphaTrak much of that time. Much less expensive to use - test strips are the bigger cost over time - and more than accurate enough.

Whether a pet can live with incredibly high blood sugar depends on the definition of incredibly high. They can get by with blood sugar that is much higher than a human can tolerate. Some dogs who are difficult to regulate live most of their lives with blood sugar in the 200s to 300s. But blood sugar in the 700 range is not something a dog can live with for years.

Natalie

[amydunn19]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

There is no "judgement" of food here - we all feed different diets. Many of our dogs have other issues that have to be addressed or we must find something our dog will eat consistently and happily. I will say that since dogs are type 1 diabetics, most need some type of carb to maintain a good blood sugar level for the duration. I think as long as you maintain a good balance and they have a carb component to the meal, then you are fine. I understand the rodent eating as I grew up in the country on a farm and I know how dogs are but diabetes always seems to be more "controlled" when consistency in amount and time frame of meals is adhered to stringently.

I feed three times a day but only give insulin twice a day. My Maggie has a tendency to run low at the six hour mark and she doesn't eat a huge meal at breakfast so she gets a mini meal at noon. She typically doesn't run out of insulin until the 10th or 11th hour. But, if I gave her insulin at noon(6 hours after) , I fear she would overlap and be in trouble after her evening meal and insulin. The 3 times a day dosing wouldn't be such a risk if you were testing blood sugar at home so I would encourage you to test at home.

Novolin is fine - pretty much same as Humulin so I wouldn't spend the extra $$$

[Tobysgirl]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Amy, thanks for the tips. Zipp used to get kibble (Wellness Senior) for her midday meal, quite a small amount. If you think the Novolin is okay, would it be okay to just give her insulin 2x daily? Do you have a kibble you would recommend? The only carbs Zipp gets right now are mashed squash or carrots, something the conventional vet recommended. What bothers me is her constant hunger. She was always hungry prior to getting diabetes, but hungrier now. I didn't mean to imply she is eating loads of rodents, just an occasional one.

[amydunn19]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

The hunger is a by-product of not having good control of her blood sugar. The hunger will start to get better when her food and insulin are better balanced. With the occasional rodent thrown in for good measure

As far as suggesting a particular food, I would check out dogfoodadvisor.com to research foods you might be interested in. I would choose something readily available in your area and ingredients you like. Many members like the dehydrated food, Honest Kitchen. A few of us feed Nutrisca, some go for Blue Buffalo, Wellness, and many dogs do well with w/d that the vets sell. It actually works well with insulin. My dog would never eat it cause she is a diva so never an option for us. There are so many options that work. You also could top with a canned food or some of the other fresh items you have been using. The biggest thing is to come up with something she will eat all the time happily.

I think if you start by doing the same amount and same food every meal, and begin testing bg levels at home, you will start to get a real gauge of where she is at. I would give Novolin N twice a day and as Tara said in her post let the dose settle and do a curve. We would be glad to help you with anything along the way. From that curve, you can see what tweaks her routine may need.

[Tobysgirl]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

We started giving her kibble (Wellness Senior) which we had on hand (1/3 cup with each meal). She seems to feel better and not act like she's starving (which she has done since we adopted her, three years ago, just worse with the diabetes), but her blood sugar was much higher this morning than it has been. Our holistic vet asked why we weren't increasing her insulin, so we are. But the Novolin is a medium-acting insulin, which is why my husband, an RN, thought we should be treating her 3x daily. I checked out the cost of Glargine, a long-acting insulin -- whoo-ee! It costs more than 230% the cost of the Novolin. I'm guessing that all the long-acting insulins are very expensive, an insulin that would cover her for 12 hours.

Once again, I thank you for your help; it is much appreciated!

[CraigM]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Some members have had success with various feeding procedures: one meal, three meals, one meal with snack, etc.. I believe those who have had success with these procedures had months, or years, of testing. For most, the two identical meals can be tweaked to work.

Every pup / situation is different, but a mid-day snack wouldn't work in Annie. This is my way of looking at it. If I had the "perfect" dose of insulin for her breakfast, but then gave a mid-day snack, that snack would use-up the remaining insulin and she wouldn't get close to 12 hours duration.

If you would post a copy of a 12 hour curve, indicating when food / insulin was given, some folks might be able to provide suggestions.

About this mornings high(?) reading. Things happen that we sometimes can't identify. Annie can stay in a 100-225 range for a week, but then BAM! She throws a 350 for no known reason.

Craig

[jesse girl]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

i agree with craig when you go outside the box it takes more testing and can be a slow process and no guarantee it will work . its hard to find others who have laid out a template for something different

the standard 2 meals and shots did not work within that first year of diagnosis its possible it would work now her digestive system was not in good shape and that may have caused the inconsistent with blood sugar

you must be careful basing everything on a hypothesis that you think maybe occurring ( stay open minded and dont beat your head up give some time if it doesn't work move on ) i thought jesses insulin ran out at 4 hours and based her routine on that . but it appears that was not true and her body appeared to be sensitive to drops so she would bounce back up. nothing to do with the duration of insulin for her which set us back because we were treating the wrong problem .once we figured she needed some carbs to work with insulin we were on a better path .

as craig said some of us put allot of time getting to the best place we can we have been there for a while once there its just routine same as any routine .

[Tobysgirl]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

Thanks once again to posters. My husband used urine strips one day and her blood sugar was very high all day. I think we'll take her to the conventional vet at the end of October; it will have been three months since they saw her. I really have to decide about getting a glucometer and find out how much One Touch costs. The vet glucometer was about $100.

All that said, she is doing super. My husband (I'm disabled) has started taking her for deliberate walks -- as compared to her meanderings -- in mid-afternoon and she is sleeping longer at night. We're back to no kibble, just protein and veg, 12 units Novolin 3x daily. What amazes me is how well she looks and seems to feel. What concerns us is kidney deterioration due to the high sugar.

[CraigM]

Re: new here with our dog zipp

The AlphaTrak2 meter is great, but not only the initial cost of the meter high, but the ongoing high cost of the test strips (about $1 each) can eat into a budget

The One Touch Ultra is probably the most recommended system on the forum. If you shop online, you can frequently find it for about $15 and test strips for 50 cents each (sometimes even lower). The OTU seems to test dog blood with just a small error. Another advantage to the OTU, or other human meter, is that you can keep track of your glucose level!

Craig