mid day injections??

[dg112154]

Hello, Does anyone administer insulin 15 minutes or so before a meal to their dog?? My Alex's BG jumps up about 100 points within the first few hours after eating and often comes down below his starting point at the end of the day. His curves look like it would be helpful to give him insulin prior to eating to match the spike of food and the spike of insulin better. He is an excellent eater and have never had a problem with him not eating. Thanks Deb

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

No i dont. I always test first at fasting, feed then inject right after eating. I wont risk him not eating then run into problems that i need to fix.

can you post a recent curve please so we can help you more?
what food is he eating and how much
what insulin and how much

thanks

stay warm its getting cooool again

[jesse girl]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

hi and welcome

some do it .

it is a bit risky because there is no guarantee but i inject my jesse while she eats

my thought is to add a fast acting insulin at meal time . r insulin gets going in a half hour and maybe lasts 4 to 6 hours . i prefer this because you can give it after meal even a bit later with your normal insulin but you do need to be positive that spike occurs day in and day out

just giving the shot later may not make any difference . my jesse spikes when she is lower its just how her body responds to the injection . if she higher she actually will drop

a 100 point spike is quite normal . i understand its frustrating but there maybe nothing to do about it and over time it may get smaller

sometimes adding a specific type of food can help but that takes some experimentation

[Monsters Momma]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Hi and Welcome!
We don't inject first, although we've never had problems getting Vinny to eat! I've just always felt it was unwise for us. Vinny's BG does go up first, then down...he used to have this 's' curve going, but lately it's all been rather flat. Time changes things around here!

How long ago was Alex diagnosed? Are you still tweeking the dosage? We continually tweek...nothing stays the same around here for very long. Vinny likes to keep us on our toes!

Welcome again!
Mel and Vinny

[CraigM]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Sounds like your Alex, and my Annie, have the same response to food / insulin. I tried injecting 15 minutes before meals, but it didn't seem to make any noticeable difference. I thought about going 30-45 early, but that just wouldn't fit our schedule well.

You didn't state what insulin you are using, but I've been mixing a small amount of Novolin-R (faster acting insulin) with her Novolin-N (intermediate acting insulin) for years. The Novolin-R can be adjusted to prevent the big post meal BG rise.

Tell us more about Alex. Weight, type of insulin, insulin dosage. We like to get to know "our" pups

Craig

[dg112154]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Sounds like your Alex, and my Annie, have the same response to food / insulin. I tried injecting 15 minutes before meals, but it didn't seem to make any noticeable difference. I thought about going 30-45 early, but that just wouldn't fit our schedule well.

You didn't state what insulin you are using, but I've been mixing a small amount of Novolin-R (faster acting insulin) with her Novolin-N (intermediate acting insulin) for years. The Novolin-R can be adjusted to prevent the big post meal BG rise.

Tell us more about Alex. Weight, type of insulin, insulin dosage. We like to get to know "our" pups

Craig

Thanks for all your replys...I really appreciate it. Alex was diagnosed in November and has been on insulin and Hills WD since then. I am this week transitioning him off of WD to a healthier diet and am putting him on Orijen dry fish flavor. My first day off from work is Thurs. and Im hoping to get him totally switched over when I can be home with him all day. He is on Prozinc insulin that I get thru my vet and gets a scant 2 units twice a day. He is a 17 lb terrier mix. When I get him adjusted to his new diet I will certainly post a curve and welcome any advice. Has anyone had any luck with Benefiber getting the food to last a bit longer to help keep his numbers up at the end of the day?

[amydunn19]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Welcome to you and Alex. A word of caution - Orijen is really high in protein and many have experienced problems with high protein food. A change to high protein diet can give really high fasting numbers and wild swings. Just don't be shocked if the numbers go pretty crazy. Also, the fat level is a bit high and diabetic dogs are very prone to pancreatitis. I think sometimes those higher protein foods are difficult on the pancreas.

Diabetes really needs some complex carb sources to balance with insulin. My dog never could eat wd - she refused it. I tried all kinds of foods - prescription and premium. I even tried one of the Orijen foods - like the senior one, she turned her nose up at it as well. I finally settled on her current food - it is low glycemic and a difficult balance as well. I have to prop it up but with her history of pancreatitis and pickiness, I just try to work her out a schedule to keep her in a safe range. I know people don't love the ingredients in wd but it works well with injectable insulin and is a good option if your dog will eat it.

I will be interested to see how your dog reacts to Orijen. Every dog is different and we have had dogs who do fine with high protein food and practically every other diet imaginable.

[CraigM]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

I've heard prozinc does a good job with cats, but not many dogs use it. I'm hopping someone with the "scoop" will join in.

Craig

[dg112154]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Welcome to you and Alex. A word of caution - Orijen is really high in protein and many have experienced problems with high protein food. A change to high protein diet can give really high fasting numbers and wild swings. Just don't be shocked if the numbers go pretty crazy. Also, the fat level is a bit high and diabetic dogs are very prone to pancreatitis. I think sometimes those higher protein foods are difficult on the pancreas.

Diabetes really needs some complex carb sources to balance with insulin. My dog never could eat wd - she refused it. I tried all kinds of foods - prescription and premium. I even tried one of the Orijen foods - like the senior one, she turned her nose up at it as well. I finally settled on her current food - it is low glycemic and a difficult balance as well. I have to prop it up but with her history of pancreatitis and pickiness, I just try to work her out a schedule to keep her in a safe range. I know people don't love the ingredients in wd but it works well with injectable insulin and is a good option if your dog will eat it.

I will be interested to see how your dog reacts to Orijen. Every dog is different and we have had dogs who do fine with high protein food and practically every other diet imaginable.

Thanks for the reply. I am hoping the Orijin works with him. I also saw your dog food, Nutrisca which also gets great reviews. I believe Nutrisca was around 32% protein and Orijin is 38% so they are pretty close to each other.

[dg112154]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

I've heard prozinc does a good job with cats, but not many dogs use it. I'm hopping someone with the "scoop" will join in.

Craig

I just looked up Prozinc and even on their website they only talk about using it with Cats??? What have other people gotten from their vets for dogs other than Prozinc? Thanks for pointing that out Craig I appreciate it

[CraigM]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

I just looked up Prozinc and even on their website they only talk about using it with Cats??? What have other people gotten from their vets for dogs other than Prozinc? Thanks for pointing that out Craig I appreciate it

If you are in the U.S., the most common insulins are either Vetsulin (made for dogs, requires a prescription) and Novolin-N (human insulin that works well with most dogs, no prescription required).

I've used both, but Novolin-N from Walmart is only $25/vial so I'm staying with Novolin-N.

Craig

[amydunn19]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

I mentioned my food to make the point that I cannot use it exclusively - I have to add to it to make it work and I have to feed Maggie multiple times a day. But she is a dog who has suffered from pancreatitis many times so she cannot handle big meals and she will have big drops during the day without adding some carbs and extras. Her insulin dose is pretty small - 2 1/2 units. It is a delicate line we walk. You may not have this issue, though. Every dog requires something different. We just have had a great deal of people who have gone in search of a "better" diet and after changing the numbers go kind of crazy leaving them scratching their head. I just didn't want you to see some high numbers and be shocked. Hopefully, it will work well.

I looked up the Prozinc as well - I had heard about it but hadn't seen anyone here using it. That is concerning that it is primarily for cats. I know you will be on top of it. I have used novolin and humulin - whoever has the contract with WalMart to get it for $25. My vet had no idea that Walmart sold insulin that cheap so he now tells all his patients about it.

I guess you are home testing - that is a great thing to do and will serve him well.

[k9diabetes]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

ProZinc definitely is not typically used in dogs. It can be a fallback insulin when the others have been tried and failed...

Its use in dogs always concerns me because I think it tends to suggest a vet whose knowledge of managing canine and feline diabetes is poor or outdated.

NPH and Vetsulin/Caninsulin are the mainstays and Levemir is becoming more popular as well, though it presents some problems for small doses so wouldn't be a good choice in your case.

ProZinc is also very expensive I believe - another reason to prefer not to use it.
. . . .

That said, you are not using a high dose so if his blood sugar control is good, he must be responding fairly well to it.
. . . .

Many times with Orijen it seems like the diet needs to be supplemented with vegetables or grains in order to provide enough carbs. However, that has generally been in cases with faster acting "intermediate" insulins like NPH and Vetsulin. So if you stay with ProZinc, you may not have the same problems feeding Orijen.

Fiber, like so many things, seems to be very individual in how dogs respond. It also depends on what diet you're adding it to.

Probably this simplest thing to do is to make one change at a time - so switch to Orijen by itself and see what you get. It may be you won't have to add anything, including fiber.

Do a curve on the Orijen and ProZinc and see what you get.

If the new diet and insulin don't seem to mesh well (curve has big drops and/or spikes in blood sugar), the curve will tell you what is needed - more carbs, fiber, etc.

Added protein could be a fix for what sounds like a lot of insulin working late in the day when the food is all gone.

Do you have a pretty good sense of his typical curve on his current regimen?

Natalie

Thanks for all your replys...I really appreciate it. Alex was diagnosed in November and has been on insulin and Hills WD since then. I am this week transitioning him off of WD to a healthier diet and am putting him on Orijen dry fish flavor. My first day off from work is Thurs. and Im hoping to get him totally switched over when I can be home with him all day. He is on Prozinc insulin that I get thru my vet and gets a scant 2 units twice a day. He is a 17 lb terrier mix. When I get him adjusted to his new diet I will certainly post a curve and welcome any advice. Has anyone had any luck with Benefiber getting the food to last a bit longer to help keep his numbers up at the end of the day?

[Eddie]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

I can't comment on the types of insulin but we feed our dog Canagan which is 33% protein and just fish and vegetables rather like Orijen. We find it works well for his other digestive issues and seems to work ok for us with Caninsulin (UK version of Vetsulin).

We do find that it means our dog's curves are always a "mountain" shape ie his blood sugar goes up then peaks around lunchtime and goes down again so his lowest numbers are at fasting just before a meal, which is not the "typical" shape.

Antonia

[WRoberson]

Re: premeal insulin dosage

Strictly regarding my dog and my system, using my type of insulin... I say it that way so that everyone understands what works for us may not work for you.

First off Sadie is a 28lb Schnauzer using 7 units of Levemir Detemir twice a day. She is fed at 6AM and 6PM with her injections given 10 minutes before she eats. She has never refused food.
Her snacks during the day are cold green beans only.

Her latest 2hr curve numbers ( now her norms) starting with Morning fast: 89,154,166,154,171,183,180.

Why the injections 10 minutes before? This came about after some study of the BG highs Sadie would develop during the day. If we delayed giving insulin until after feeding her BG would go into the high 300’s before starting back down. This would happen well before the Detemir peak at 5 hours then take some time to come back down to a better range.

By moving the injection time back toward the feeding time it was hoped that the peak insulin action and the peak glucose production would better match. In Sadie’s case the best time to inject is 10 minutes before feeding.

Simplified: I am guessing, the insulin injected is not playing catch up with the Blood Glucose production levels.

With all the caveats, Its working for us.