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-   -   Frustrated with food spikes (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7683)

Lolo 06-14-2018 02:25 PM

Frustrated with food spikes
 
Has anyone with a dog inclined to food spikes found a dry food that did NOT spike their dog... or not spike as much? I really donít want to give R since her spikes are unpredictable... sometimes 50 pts and sometimes 200. I was feeding wellness core reduced fat and Iím doing a gradual switch to RC glycobalance now and itís awful. Sheís spiking 250 pts! Sheís hitting levels over 500 2 hrs after eating. We havenít seen those numbers in ages. I think Iím going to have to bail on RC and just go back to wellness. I called their info line and they said glycobalance is formulated to maintain healthy glucose levels... and prevent a drop after eating. So it sounds like itís almost formulated to spike them... not good for a dog that is inclined to spike, not drop, after eating.
Iím so frustrated by this food thing.

jesse girl 06-14-2018 03:11 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Yeah its probably there to give a little punch early with the strong action of insulin or possible overlap from the previous dose . For dogs who drop early this food maybe beneficial

Like you said your dog was already spiking so this food may make it worse

I have the same problem with jesse she could spike allot or barely nothing at all it makes you think is it really a food spike or some kind of hormonal response . You would think if it was food it would do it every time but who knows for sure

Jesse changed from dropping after food and insulin to rising after

With any food change you kind of have to re regulate again depending how different the food is constructed

Its funny when you try something new you forget how well you had it before but we all would like to do better for our pups . I have a ton of things i tried thats on the trash heap but i learned something from each and everyone of them

Lolo 06-14-2018 05:28 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse girl (Post 165334)
Its funny when you try something new you forget how well you had it before but we all would like to do better for our pups .

This is so true! Last night I was telling myself that itís never going to get better if Iím not willing to try something new (no risk, no reward etc), but this new is not better. I know numbers can get a little rocky as they adjust to any food change, but I just cant stomach these highs.

Daisydog10 06-15-2018 10:59 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
When Daisy was spiking several hundred points after eating, I soaked a portion of her kibble to flatten out her curve. The food was hitting her system, it wasn't digesting. Adding water and soaking some kibble aided her digestion process.

Lolo 06-15-2018 11:25 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
I stopped the glycobalance yesterday and went back to just wellness last night. I do already add a teeny bit of water to it. I heat up abt 15g of ground turkey and then add a bit of water to make a turkey broth and pour it all over her dry food. Probably only a tbs of water though and I feed it to her right away. I could try adding more water and/or let it sit and soak. How long do you soak for and how much water? Iíve always felt like that would spike her more because she would digest faster if soaked and spike more before insulin kicks in. Levemir has a real delayed action of about 2 hrs.

Daisydog10 06-16-2018 03:37 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
I mush up all her food in a food processor with a little water, then soak about 11g of kibble until it's mushy. I put it in the microwave with water for about 20 seconds. Daisy is on Novolin N, so I'm not sure how the food would react with a different insulin.
I have seen success stories concerning high fasting numbers with soaking/wetting food to an almost canned dog food consistency. So far it's helped Daisy with her sluggish digestion.

Scooterspal 06-17-2018 04:39 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lolo (Post 165332)
...She’s spiking 250 pts! She’s hitting levels over 500 2 hrs after eating. We haven’t seen those numbers in ages. I think I’m going to have to bail on RC and just go back to wellness....I’m so frustrated by this food thing.

If your pet is having these drastic changes after doing well before it may be a change in insulin dosage or type is now required. Introducing Novolin R, the fast acting version insulin, can help to control the spikes you are seeing. It's reaches peak at about two hours after injection, which would seem to be the exact time your dog is hitting a spike.

Changing food back and forth is not helping, either. Even after Scooter was diagnosed I continued using the same food. No changes. I saw no need to make any and his levels remain well below most others who post here. That control is due to my vet suggesting the use of both Novolin R and N to keep his levels in check.

A consultation with your vet may be in order.

Lolo 06-17-2018 12:07 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
i was just testing glycobalance in hopes of finding a food that didnít cause any food spike, or a very minimal one. It was obviously not a good choice so we just went back to the food I had been feeding her. Which has potatoes so probably isnít a great choice either.
Her spike isnít necessarily at 2 hrs, but thatís just the point where the Levemir starts to act. Itís long acting, but has a very delayed action. She starts to spike within minutes of eating and then continues to rise until the Levemir starts acting. Iíve considered using R, but because she has lowish fasting numbers (usually under 200) and the degree of spike is unpredictable I just donít feel comfortable using it yet. I also donít want it overlapping with levemir so I canít really wait and see how much she spikes and then administer R or it will overlap.

Scooterspal 06-18-2018 03:25 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Your original post here does not mention you are using Levemir. You mentioned Novolin R so I assumed you were using Novolin N, now.

Had I known that I would not have suggested considering Novolin R which should only be used together with Novolin N.

One good reason to provide your specifics in your signature. In that way we will know exactly what you are doing with your pet and can respond accurately.

Lolo 06-18-2018 06:09 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Actually Lucyís specialist who put her on Levemir said I could give R to deal with food spikes, so they can be used in combo. I just told her Iíd like to at least attempt to lower them with a food change first.

jesse girl 06-18-2018 06:37 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Jesses NPH insulin begins 1.5 hours after giving shot . The spikes can be frustrating . I have used r and novolog for jesse to resist the spike but what happens it just occurs at another time of the day . So her general levels remain the same and all it may do is change the shape of the curve . Also like you i worry about giving it to prevent a spike because at times she doesnt have them

Now i may use the fast acting insulin's to correct higher sugar but it never worked as scooters mom sugested and stabilized the curve . May work for one dog and not another

Yes you can use r insulin with levemir the only thing i am not sure of is mixing the 2 shots together and may have to give separate shots

I do think your thought process is good and taking things one step at a time
Remember for many dogs the need for very good sugar may not be that important jesse is proof of that . Tight control also has its risks being closer to low blood sugar

Lolo 06-18-2018 07:33 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Thanks everyone! It is really helpful sometimes just talking things through.
Jesse girl, I would have to give R as a separate shot. It should not be mixed with Levemir in a single syringe.
I just don’t know that I would ever be comfortable giving her R when she has a fasting BG under 200 (which is normal for her). I give her her full dose of levemir without waiting if she’s 150 or higher (even though I know it’s recommended that you wait and retest to make sure they hit 200 after eating). But for now I wouldn’t be comfortable giving R and levemir with a fasting BG in the 200 ballpark... even knowing how much she typically spikes after a meal.

Raysaint 06-20-2018 06:11 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
What is her nadir numbers? Even tho she spikes after eating, as most do, does she come down to a much lower number after the spike? Does the spike last that long?

Lolo 06-20-2018 08:15 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
The spike does last pretty long because Levemir is super gradual. Itís so different than my experience with NPH or 70/30. Those dropped her fast, but also raised her fast. She could move 200 pts within 2 hrs on NPH. With levemir sheíll move maybe 50 pts over 2 hrs when it starts to kick in... but that means when she has a food spike that pushes her to 400 it can take 4-5 hours (after a dose) to get below 300. Sheíll drop abt 50 pts every 2 hrs til she hits 150-220ish on average and then pretty much stays there with minimal movements until the next dose.
Her lowest reading is usually either at fasting or the 10 hour mark. Even though I hate the delayed action and resulting spike I know the more gradual movement of numbers is so much healthier for her. But I also can tell that that spike after eating doesnít feel good to her.

Lolo 06-25-2018 12:44 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
So I decided to give up for now on trying to find a food that didn’t spike her so much and finally got up the nerve to use R. We’ve used it before when she was on NPH and it was in the 70/30 blend she was on for over a month. It dropped her super fast in the 70/30 so I decided to start really easy with just 1u and I think this may be what we needed. I really just want the R to combat/level the spike and make the duration shorter. I don’t want to use so much that it drops her too rapidly. I’d rather she run a little higher for longer than risk her going hypo when I’m not home.
Here are the numbers from yesterday. I wasn’t home all day so missed some readings, but made sure to be home when I thought she could go low. My focus yesterday was taking a lot of readings just to monitor food spike and duration and drop of R. I’m pretty happy with it. I’ll keep it like this for the week unless I get any low numbers. Her lowest numbers are usually fasting or at 10 hr mark.
Dose: 3.25u Levemir, 1u Novolin R

6:08 237
Feed/insulin 6:15-6:20
7:30 338 food spike
8:16 306
9:14 273
10:13 281
11:34 289
2:45 177
6:07 160
Feed/insulin 6:13-6:18
6:46 206
7:15 239
8:18 233

Today
6:07 245
Feed/insulin 6:14-6:20
8:30 223
10:21 236
12:24 198

jesse girl 06-25-2018 03:01 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
looks positive but you wont really know until doing a couple complete curves

MikeMurphy 06-25-2018 06:41 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Very nice:)

farrwf 06-26-2018 05:16 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Looking good!

Scooterspal 06-27-2018 03:37 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lolo (Post 165435)
So I decided to give up for now on trying to find a food that didnít spike her so much and finally got up the nerve to use R....I really just want the R to combat/level the spike and make the duration shorter....Iíll keep it like this for the week unless I get any low numbers

The issue of low BG numbers seems to be a bit overblown. I'm sure this can be specific to each pet and some may react differently but if normal BG is 80 to 120 getting close to that by way of insulin should be acceptable.

Scooter's nadir often gets to 80 or below with no obvious negative effects. He has never gone "clinical" as his internist calls it.

Glad to see you opted for using Nonolin R. As I suggested, it is an accepted way to get a handle on BG levels when all else fails.

Mark4124 07-24-2018 12:44 PM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Nutro Weight Management is very good, lots of fiber and low calories. Controlled my dog well for years. Currently a little concerned about weight drop but that may be due to age as much as anything else, trying to add additional calories now is a pain.

alleng8304 07-25-2018 09:07 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
I was frustrated with food spikes as well and went up and down with vetsulin thinking I was doing good. Now I use 4 U q12 and two small meals q12 I switched to Royal Canin Glyobalance (presription food) with a little bit of broiled chicken and Ollie's BS stays around 80-120 all the time. Thanks

Lolo 07-26-2018 07:35 AM

Re: Frustrated with food spikes
 
Iím amazed (and envious) that some of you can so tightly control your pupís BG so consistently day to day. Itís much better here since Iíve started giving her R with the Levemir, but I still see some fluctuations from day to day. I think a lot of it may be due to the precision required with Levemir. Itís impossible to give the same exact dose every day. Drawing a dose that is just a hair +/- with Levemir is equivalent to giving .5-1 unit +/- with any other insulin since itís so much stronger.


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