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-   -   Kinser - Kinser has passed on... August 1, 2016 (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6690)

k9diabetes 01-19-2016 12:34 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
Hi Joan,

I don't think there would be very many GP vets and perhaps not even IMSs who could conduct the kinds of tests needed to determine if it's a vestibular event or something else.

No question that the vet we had at the time was exceptional. He also did complex ultrasounds and taught radiography at the local vet school. So we were very lucky. Also lucky to have a neurologist nearby and that we could be seen right away. Broke my heart when that vet retired...

It definitely is the sort of fine diagnostic that requires specific, hands-on specialized testing.

I tend to think the very quick recovery of Chris and Scooter's events points to something else like a transient blood clot. Chris was pretty much entirely back to normal within about... I'd say five hours max. And mostly recovered in about 3 hours.

Thereafter, we started giving him a baby aspirin every day because of concern that he might be throwing clots. And a cardiac ultrasound saw evidence of something inside his heart that could have been the source of a clot.

No way to know for sure without massive diagnostics that we weren't interested in doing. But the neurologist's bet, given his tests, was that it was vascular.


momofdecker 01-19-2016 06:36 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
I was able to upload a few videos this morning.

From Sunday evening. John walks him over to his blanket and lays him down:

From Monday. His eyes still dart around even when he is sleeping:

This is his eyes this morning. The rate of the movement does seem to be slowing down:

He still is unable to get up or walk but his cognitive abilities seem to be in tact. Last night I stood him up and walked him around for a few minutes just to get him up. He wanted to lay by the couch. As he was laying there he kept looking back at the couch. So I stood him up and turned him around and he tried to get his front paws onto the couch. That's what he typically does. Before this happened he'd stand with his front paws on the couch and wait for me to boost his back end up. So we covered the couch and John lifted him up. He was one happy dog.

Around 3a he woke me as he was panting heavily. I checked on him and he seemed agitated. So I got him down and took him outside and he immediately urinated. Then walked him back in, got him settled and he went back to sleep.

He didn't want any chicken this morning and spit out his meds several times so he still has a lot of fight left in him in that regards. :)

I worry so much about the mobility. Reminds me so much of Decker - in the respect that the mind is sound but the body is giving out. Will give it more time and keep looking for those tiny signs of improvement. Fingers and paws crossed we continue to see it.

We've been fortunately that prior to yesterday we've had a very mild winter. We've been walking the dogs on a near by hiking trail every weekend. Kinser has been going with us and has managed 2-3 mile hikes. It takes several hours but his spirit lights right up when we take him. We keep a hand harness on him and help him up/down the hills, but other wise he wanders off lead. He sniffs to his heart's content, his eyes are bright and alert and his tail wags the whole time. We often meet other dogs and we have to hold on to him because they will get running around with Toby and Kinser will tip easily. But he gets so excited to get to say hello to other dogs as well.

Natalie - you know my thoughts on our neurology options here. I won't take him there. Their dx with Decker may have been sound but any teaching hospital that refuses medication because they don't have a confirmed reason for the dx. is a place I feel puts financial gain over quality of life - and not a place that will get my business. Add to that the fact that because they are a teaching hospital - the vets there can be exempt from having to be licensed in the state of NY - it's sad - I would expect a teaching hospital to be held to higher standards - not exemptions. I've looked around and if we need a neuro consult we will have to travel out of state as what I've found around here are not options I feel overly confident with.

jesse girl 01-19-2016 08:13 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
yep thats what jesse had and i think jesses case may have been more sever

it looks like hes improving to me and i dont see anything that says hes not present. balance may take sometime to come back

i had an inner ear infection that took me weeks to get my balance back

Joan 01-22-2016 08:27 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
I know it can be heart wrenching to watch your baby struggle, but I think he is doing really well. The last video of the eyes: to me that doesn't look like what I would describe as "darting". I would say maybe an anxious dog's reaction to not understanding what is going on.

He is making progress, and certainly seems happy and comfortable.

Prayers for all of you, Joan

momofdecker 01-23-2016 10:06 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
Thanks Joan. We are still plugging along. The uncontrolled movement of the eyes stopped on Wednesday - they are pretty much back to normal at this point.

He also started eating a little bit on Wednesday. Thanks to all the tips we've learned over the years regarding how to get a picky diabetic dog to eat - we've had lots of options to try to encourage him to eat. He's still only getting about a cup of food total into him each day but I imagine if I was dizzy for four days it would take some time for my stomach to recover as well.

Thursday was a good day with some very positive movement - once we stood him up, he could stand unsupported for a few seconds (as long as he didn't move) on his own. Took video. You can see the weakness in his rear legs when I try to get him to walk. Some is the balance issue - some is weakness that existed prior to the vestibular incident. You can see the large fatty tumor on his left rear hip area. He knuckles that left rear foot as well. He was starting to do that a bit before the vestibular incident and I'm sure that will make it a bit more difficult for him to recover from. He's a stubborn old man though - time will tell.

This is what happens if he tries to get up and move unsupported. Again, the struggle to get up was in existence before the vestibular incident. The balance issue he is still working through. For now we are still supporting him as he tries to move around.

He has about five days of antibiotics left and has become extremely suspicious of any meds we try sneaking into the small amount of food he eats. Have no idea if they are helping but know they are not hurting him at all. Pill pockets worked for a day and a half and now he's on to that as well. Keeping us on our toes for sure. Hoping that stubbornness will serve him well in gaining his balance and strength back.

Joan 01-23-2016 12:11 PM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
You might ask/mention to your vet on the "bonine". It is not prescription, and I didn't know about it when we had our vestibular time. But had our little quadraplegic pug into a holistic vet last winter, and she had us try bonine, you can get it at any pharmacy. It did not help him, but he had a brain stem tumor. But she did say they use it a lot for vestibular. She is an excellent vet and very experienced.

Hope all continues to improve, and BTW stubborn is good! Just ask me LOL.

nibbles-mommy 01-23-2016 04:44 PM

Hey holly- long time no talk!

I was just popping in since I'm snowed in and bored.

My Casey had vestibular, we also think nibbles had a mild bout of it also.

Just out of no where carry got up in the middle of the night head tilted, falling over, walking in circles and throwing up. I panicked and called the vet. We ended up bringing her in and she had all the symptoms. He out her on steroids and said that it normally resolves itself after some time. He couldn't give me a time frame because it greatly varied on the dog. He thought it could be a small tumor in her brain and the only resolution would be surgery or steroid to reduce the swelling.

We went with the steroids because she was already 15, had cancer and I was not risking it. We kept her on the steroids cause it also helped keep the cancer in check but the price was a reduction in her immune system.

It took about a month to resolve. They falling, circling and throwing only lasted a few days. Her head tilt lasted about a month and after, it was still slightly tilted.

With nibbles, he woke up in the morning the same way and I had already known the signs so looked to him eyes and they were darting. I called the vet and he said I already knew what to do so we waited. His resolved with no intervention except Dramamine writhing 2 days.

I hope he starts feeling better poor baby. Good luck and I'll check in to see how he is.

momofdecker 01-25-2016 02:58 PM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?

Great to hear from you! I hope the weather has gotten better your way. How is your crew doing these days?

Good news on Kinser. Day 7 (yesterday) he started to show some significant improvement. He was able to get up and walk about four steps by himself before tipping over. John just sent me video from about an hour ago. The quality is terrible because of how I transferred it from his phone to mine - but you can see the progress. Here he is on day 8.
ps - Kinser now uses the Nibble's ramp - he says thank you - he's been able to go hiking when John is not around to boost him into my vehicle thanks to the ramp.

Kinser's vet had mentioned meclizine, which I think is the same as bonine. We did pick some up and have some on hand, but he is already getting benadryl and tramadol and we've been holding out to see if we think he needs anything else added right now - specifically something more that can cause drowsiness. It's been a fine line between letting him rest and making sure he works those rear legs as he's lost so much muscle mass in them (unrelated to vestibular) - I've worried about him being down for too long and not ever being able to get back up on them. Good news is that he seems to be coming around. Thanks for the recommendation though!

Patty 01-25-2016 07:05 PM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
Sorry you've been having these issues Holli. Glad to hear there's some improvement.

Judi 01-26-2016 06:25 AM

Re: Kinser - vestibular disease?
so glad there has been some improvement (and that you have the ramp!)

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