Daisy's Story

[Daisydog10]

We're new to this forum and I must say, since Daisy was diagnosed with diabetes January 20, I think I've read every thread on here trying to educate myself. A big thank you to all of you for your trials, insight and suggestions. You are all wonderful.

Daisy is a 7 1/2 year old miniature schnauzer. When first diagnosed, the vet started her on Vetsulin 3cc 2x daily. She kept on rebounding at night and her levels kept going up. I couldn't get her anywhere near regulated. I did a curve on her (561 highest and 386 lowest) and took her back to the vet and she changed her over to Novolin N 3 cc 2x daily. I'm upping her by 1/2 units and we are at 5 today. So far the afternoon numbers are coming down, but morning levels are still high. We had 325 this afternoon, down from around 600 this morning. This is scary stuff.

My prayer is the Novolin N works.

The vet originally put Daisy on the Royal Canin glucose dog food, which I don't think helped. I am now making Ruby's Stewbie and feeding her 1 cup twice daily, along with 1/4 cup chicken. She's at 24.6lb from 27lb since January. The vet wants her around 18lb.

I don't understand why she is spiking in the morning, so I'm trying to adjust her dinner to 1/2 c Stewbie and 1/2 c chicken. Not sure at this point whether I need to adjust the night dose a little higher or lower. I'm so paranoid I keep corn syrup on my nightstand and periodically wake up at night and poke her to make sure she's okay. I'll do another curve on her in a few days to see where we're at. Again, very scary.

I've been using the Alphatrac2 but have ordered the Advocate monitor as I'm spending a small fortune in strips for the Alphatrac. I'll most likely use both.

I put a warm washcloth on Daisy's ear, she actually likes it, then use a Relion 26 gauge lancet. I say "Click!" when I pop the little trigger in her ear and she just looks at me like "really?". After the beep she hightails it in to the kitchen and stands by her dish waiting for her food. She's a really good eater and I have no problems giving her her insulin, although she will give me a dirty look if the insulin is too cold. I'm learning and trying not to be a nervous wreck through all this.

Thank you again for all the good information on this blog and any insight to what I'm doing wrong will be greatly appreciated.

[jesse girl]

Re: Daisy

hi and welcome

sounds like your exploring possibilities . it was a battle with jesse to find what worked for her

most do find what works some longer than others

[MomofGus]

Re: Daisy

Hello and welcome. I am a schnauzer mom myself. Let me say that you are still in the early phases of trying to get regulated. Schnauzers have a tendency to be hard to regulate and most often require more insulin than most others, which is the case of my Gus. It is not uncommon to have a higher reading at morning fasting. My guess is the inactivity of sleeping. When you are changing the dose, you should allow at least a couple weeks to give the body a chance to settle to the change. Vetsulin did not work for my dog, and after awhile, we didn't think the Novolin was going to work either because we just couldn't get his numbers below 400 on a regular basis. But finally, after increase his dosage over the course of months (9 months), the higher dose of 19 units for my then 21 lb dog started to work. This was July last year.

Not sure what Rubies stew is. Perhaps your dog needs more fiber, which is important for regulation process. My dog is on w/d food, plus a tblsp of pure canned pumpkin, which adds more fiber and seems to help slow down the sugar spikes. You can read our story by searching for Gus the mini-schnauzer instead of me detailing all our details. The thing with higher numbers is to make sure no ketones are present, and also keep an eye for possible bladder infection due to the high sugar. Good job on testing. I use the Advocate meter for regular testing, and the Alphatrak as a backup tester if I get an unusual reading on the Advocate that I think needs double checked.

Another thought are problems some schnauzers have that can hinder regulation is low thyroid or high triglycerides. Has your dog been checked for either of these conditions?

[CraigM]

Re: Daisy

Welcome!
5 units of Novolin-N is pretty much a starting dosage for a 24 pound pup, but as Momofgus stated Schnauzers may require more than the typical pup.

One thing we say around here is "every dog / situation is different". Sounds like you are doing great with home testing!

Just as another example, my 18 pound Annie is getting 9 units of Novolin-N.

Are you getting your Novolin-N at Walmart ($25)? Did you switch to U-100 syringes when you switched from Vetsulin to Novolin-N?

Craig

[Daisydog10]

Re: Daisy

Thanks to all for the warm welcome and encouragement because I need it. I get pretty scared about this sometimes.

I got her Novolin N at Walmart and got the 1/2cc 100u needles as well. I also got the 1ml syringes as I figured I may need them in the future. I put the 40u up in the closet as not to make a drastic mistake on the dosage. I feed her mostly at 6a and 6p and sometimes at 6a I'm just not as awake as I should be so I want to be extra careful. She has had all blood work drawn and so far so good.

So I should keep her at 5 units for around a week or so before I go up 1/2 cc if needed?

Here are the ingredients to Ruby's Stewbie:
My vet liked the ingredients (her specialty is endocrinology, thank goodness) but also wanted me to add some calcium to her diet so I crush up egg shells into a fine powder and put it on her food.

http://myuntangledlife.com/homemade-...diabetic-dogs/

Mom of Gus- thank you for your schnauzer insight. When I talked to my vet about her wild readings, she said, oh, that's because she's a schnauzer! I wondered what that meant.

[jesse girl]

Re: Daisy

i use a small electric coffee grinder to grind up jesses eggshells into powder . it works really well

[jaycapz]

Re: Daisy

It is certainly a journey to get to the point of regulation, it takes time and patience. The more time and 'sanity' your willing to invest, the bigger the pay off/better regulation. It is a game of trial and error, and so far your on the right path. Its early, but just by being here asking questions you clearly care enough to invest in your pups health. Let me say this, for me at least it seemed like it was never gonna happen, but once we hit that stride it became an easy ride.

Alright, so to inject my 2 cents. I don't have a schnauzer, but in general the variables that affect regulation/or how much insulin: Breed, weight, dog activeness, diet and underlying ailments. Lots of variables.

With that said, based on what you have provided. I have my pup on RC glycobalance, and what I found is that I can't get him into a good range on glyco alone. Honestly, I can't do it with any dry food alone so I mix with wet. On dry glyco alone, the best I got from him was 120-200 and a random day where he'd spike over 300 every 12 hours. BG Curves were inconsistent. Switching to RC glyco mixed with blue buffalo chicken/turkey grill canned, I was able to get him in range of 60-90/avg (his worst days 120). I also am able to keep a wider window, I used to be 730am/pm on the nose. Now I can have a 30-60 minute window if I want, with minimal impacts to his numbers. Also, keep in mind insulin will work most efficiently with the dog in his best weight range. Heavier the dog, the more insulin and I have found inconsistent numbers as well. This is just to provide some examples, and hopefully some insights...

Oh and I noticed you mentioned morning/night is different, a word of advice. Dont tinker too much with combinations of food/insulin. You will chase the numbers and it will drive you insane! However, my guy early stages I had to give less food at night because of high morning numbers. Eventually, when he lost a few lbs this changed. keep in mind people/dogs and most animals have highest BG levels in the morning, and some will require different dose. For now, my advice is just to ignore this. Stay steady, continue to increase in .5 increments. I would make these changes in ~5 day increments. Once you get below 200 on average, I would space that out a bit... maybe a little more than a week if you want to be cautious.

Thats all I got for now! Sorry if I rambled a bit here, I will gladly give as much advice as I can. However, keep in mind its from my experiences. I think we can all say we can give guidance, but at the end of the day trust your gut. You know your pup, your doing good, and dont be afraid to ask for help!

[CraigM]

Re: Daisy

Two quick comments.

Sounds like you have a supply of 1/2 and 1.0 ml capacity syringes. Next time, as long as she is getting less than 30 units (can't imagine that much), you might consider the smaller 3/10 ml capacity syringes. The 3/10 syringe has a tiny more space between the lines and might make tiny adjustments easier to see.

My Annie also has higher blood glucose readings in the morning. I get around this by injecting a tiny more, ½ unit, with the evening meal. This would be trial and error if the ½ unit is correct. Jaycapz's method of slightly less food could probably also work, but I prefer to keep the meals consistent and vary the injection.

So, should you increase by ½ unit?? Since you are currently giving such a small dosage (5 units), I'd consider a full unit increase as long as the lowest reading on the curve is over 300. Just what I'd do.

Craig

BTW, you are injecting "units", and not "CC". The syringe is marked in "units".

[Daisydog10]

Re: Daisy

Yes, I'm injecting in units.

You are all giving me such good info and I appreciate it. There's so many variables to consider and we're still so new at this that yes, no one is rambling, I want your 2 cents and I need your advice.

So tonight I will give her 1/2 unit more and see where we are in the morning. I get so paranoid about too much insulin but I think you are all right, she's on a low dosage and we'll work up cautiously from there. I need to take a deep breath......

[Daisydog10]

Re: Daisy

Walmart didn't carry the 3/10 syringes, I'll order them from ADW.
We went to 5 1/2 units this evening. I'll be up poking her all night to make sure she's okay.......lol.

[MomofGus]

Re: Daisy

That's odd that Walmart didn't have the U-100 syringes. That's a pretty common syringe. If they're just out, they should order for you. They're only $12.61 for 100 of them. I know one time for me, they were out and they broke a box and sold a couple packages to hold me over until they could order a complete box for me.

I don't think you have to worry about her going low in the night just by increase 1/2 unit and you're still running in the higher numbers. Remember, any increase needs to be given a couple weeks for the body to adjust to the change. Then when it's had time to settle, a curve should be done to see the true progress of the insulin amount. You're still very early in the game. It's going to take awhile for those numbers to come down. I know how hard it is and how normal it is to expect overnight success, but canine diabetes doesn't work that way in most cases.

[Daisydog10]

Re: Daisy

I got the 1/2 and the regular ones there, they didn't have the 3/10. They were nice enough to pull out all the u-100's they had (only had two styles) so they could show me because I really didn't know what I was looking for. I know had to have the u-100's, but I wasn't sure about dosage lines, if that makes any sense.

You all sound like you've got your babies tweeked. I'll be so thankful when I can do the same.

[Daisydog10]

Re: Daisy

How long should I wait to do a curve after her insulin has been upped?

[jesse girl]

Re: Daisy

5 to 7 days for a dose to settle but some dogs it can take up to 2 weeks

[amydunn19]

Re: Daisy

I have always felt that if the dog is in high ranges most of the time, then you could increase an entire unit. Normally, I would say wait the full five days but schnauzers are tough to regulate so you might can accelerate the process a bit until you start seeing lower numbers. You just don't want to get in a situation where the numbers are so high, you start seeing UTI's or risk of ketoacidosis. Are you only testing before meals or do you test at other times?