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-   -   Gretel is now our angel (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5547)

Margaret Boyle 03-06-2010 08:22 AM

Re: Trouble brewing at injection time
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolGram (Post 25687)
Yes, I did see the instructions on different sites to inject. I have just been doing what I was instructed to do by my vet, but I plan on mentioning this to her to see if she has any particular objection to me finding a different site. I do vary the site as much as I can, given the small area I have to work with, but she just doesn't have much loose skin anywhere but on her scruff. I think I will try to set the treat container in front of her while I inject her, so maybe that will help her refocus on that, rather than what I'm doing to her! Thanks for your suggestions!

Carolyn,

Sorry I think I posted in the wrong post ,it is in the trouble brewing post,
talk about confused, my apoligies.
Scroll down here and you will get my post.

CarolW 03-06-2010 08:32 AM

Re: Trouble brewing at injection time
 
Wow, Kevin; you are very innovative! I wouldn't have thought to warm the insulin (in the syringe) in my armpit! It's great that you cooked that up on your own! (any pun intended).

It's VERY interesting, how much vets vary in their knowledge of diabetes and all the associated procedures we Human Dog-Parents face. Not only that, but some vets are much more communicative than others. I got lucky - great vet, great communicator. Well, I chose my vet with great care, too, but she's also the vet almost-nearest me, at a 40-minute drive from home.

We do discover, on this forum, that some vets appear just to go by some book they read, and since every dog is different, doing a really good job of managing diabetes in any of our dogs SOMETIMES indicates we have to change vets. Quite a few members here have changed vets; some of them, several times.

Apparently, though, you don't need to do that, Kevin!

For vet difficulties, and heart-rending tails, see this thread:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1617

People who come here for the first time are usually wildly overwhelmed, so can only ask questions, and do their best with whatever can be offered. Later on, though, as they gain control over their dogs' diabetes, and the dogs are feeling better, those who explore the forum, reading different threads, will find all kinds of useful tips and tricks.

Then after a time, some of these people become super-helpers, as well!

Carolyn - you will likely be one of those, because I can see how you concentrate well, and pay attention to detail -and I see your truly devoted concern for Gretel's comfort and well-being. Same as Ladybug (and Linda) - and most others here, too.

Sat, 6 Mar 2010 07:30:48 (PST)

Noodle 03-06-2010 10:44 AM

Re: Trouble brewing at injection time
 
Our vet originally told us to inject into the scruff as well. In the beginning, like you and Greta, he tolerated it well. But it wasn't long before he was flinching and acting like it was bothering him, despite rotating the injection site.

After reading & researching more on this board, I found information that indicated the scruff wasn't the ideal place for the best absorption and was also more prone to scar tissue formation. After that we started injecting Noodle on his side, which we actually find much easier since he is lying down. For him, we stick to an area from just past his ribcage to just before his legs, and from a few inches down from his spine and a few inches up from his stomach. That still gives us quite a bit of space (he's a medium size dog) to rotate things around to keep from hitting the same spot, and we also rotate from one side to the other - right side am, left side pm.

Making sure the insulin is warm is also a high priority. There is an old thread around her somewhere that a human diabetic posted reflecting on her own experiences with things like injections. She made the point that cold insulin hurts. We keep our vial in the refrigerator. I draw Noodle's 30 units and then leave the filled syringe on the counter while I'm getting things ready and feeding him. While he's eating, I roll the syringe in my fingers and that's generally enough to warm it. If not, I hold it in my lips crosswise and that heats it up fast.

I think many vets tell you to inject in the scruff because that's where they give vaccinations and they know it's easy and dogs tolerate it well. But dogs also aren't getting vaccinations twice a day, every day...hence the problem. Our vet also only instructed us in how to test his blood sugar by using his ear. UGH! What a disaster that was! Even they had a heck of a time doing it and Noodle hated it! :eek: If I hadn't found out about all the other options we never would have been able to successfully test Noodle's BG at home. Now I don't even let them near his ear when he goes for vet appts.

Like so many other things related to aggressively managing canine diabetes, a lot of it is left to communities of experienced diabetic pet caretakers to learn from each other. Many vets just don't have a lot of experience with managing it in a very proactive way because they learn a very limited amount about it in veterinary school. But if your fortunate, they end up learning a lot from you & your pets journey and they carry that over to future patients as well. :)

k9diabetes 03-06-2010 11:23 AM

Re: Trouble brewing at injection time
 
Here is a diagram of the many different places you can inject. We started in the scruff but Chris quickly developed thickened skin there so we moved down to the side of the chest from his front leg back about half way across his rib cage.

From BD's Dog Diabetes Learning Center (lots of good tutorials and images): http://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/page.a...t=7001&id=7395

http://www.bd.com/resource.aspx?IDX=2551

This and other information is posted on the Links Page: www.k9diabetes.com/complinks.html.

What gauge are the needles on your syringes?

You can also try different angles, ways of tenting, etc. Sometimes that makes a big difference. We have seen quite a few dogs who don't like to have their skin pulled into a tent and it's not necessary to do that to give a good subQ injection.

I will pull up the injection tips thread... have to find it. Possibly at the Answers forum: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

Natalie

k9diabetes 03-06-2010 11:26 AM

Re: Trouble brewing at injection time
 
This is another extensive thread on injection problems: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002

I'm sure you will find lots of good ideas there.

I'm going to merge this thread with your other one so we can keep all of your information together in one place.

When you want to post something new, add it to your existing thread and people will respond there. We always check the threads that have new posts in them.

I know you will find a way to make it work. :)

Natalie

CoolGram 03-06-2010 12:52 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
 
Thank you so much to all of you who responded. To answer a few of your questions, I have been trying to warm the insulin, although maybe I'm not warming it enough. I get it out of the fridge while I'm getting Gretel's food ready. Then while she's eating I prepare the syringe. Usually I just hold the bottle between my hands for a couple of moments, gently rolling it back and forth. After reading all your posts though, I probably should be warming it after I draw it into the syringe - much less to have to warm!

As to the syringes I use, currently I'm using BD Ultra-Fine 1/2ml - 12.7(1/2") -30G. The first box I had, the syringes were 3/10ml, but when I went last night for a new box, the pharmacy was out of the 3/10's so she gave me the 1/2's. I don't like them as well, because they hold more and the unit markings are closer together. I will use the suggestion to start marking the beveled side of the needle, hopefully that will help with any discomfort Gretel's been feeling.

As always, thank you all for your support. It's helping me to get through this without a nervous breakdown!

PS - I'm diabetic myself (although not on insulin) and my own numbers have been a bit off lately, what a pair Gretel and I are - diabetes is all I think about lately.

Carolyn

CarolW 03-06-2010 06:33 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
 
Hi Carolyn,

You remarked on the warming - yes; by all MEANS, warm the insulin IN the syringe - armpit method, or, as some do, holding it sideways in your mouth. I think my buddy Eileen does that, and also, somebody else here mentioned, today, doing it that way.

The syringe contents really should feel, right through the barrel, distinctly warm to your fingers, before you inject. This makes a big difference to the dog's comfort!

And, you also remarked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolGram (Post 25725)
As to the syringes I use, currently I'm using BD Ultra-Fine 1/2ml - 12.7(1/2") -30G. The first box I had, the syringes were 3/10ml, but when I went last night for a new box, the pharmacy was out of the 3/10's so she gave me the 1/2's. I don't like them as well, because they hold more and the unit markings are closer together.

Well, I think that pharmacist did you a dirty deal - "accept no substitutes!" I guess the pharmacist isn't a dog being injected [deadpan]

You bought a whole box? I'd return all unopened packets, and ask for replacements with the syringes you were using before.

This picture (ignore the stuff about conversion) shows the differences in needle length, between 12.7 mm (half-inch) and 8 mm (5/16-inch).

The long-needle ones shown are from 1 cc (1 ml) syringes, but the half-cc, or half-ml syringes have the same needles (12.7 mm = half-inch) as the ones shown in that picture.

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/cvt6p5udisplay.php

You can see that the difference is fairly dramatic.

The change in gauge between 30-gauge, and the even thinner 31-gauge, isn't quite as crucial, though even that difference is significant for the dog.

I buy syringes well in advance, to make sure I don't run out of my favorites.

Keep reporting in, will you? I KNOW you'll do REALLY well with Gretel - because you care!

Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:32:03 (PST)

CoolGram 03-06-2010 07:57 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only difference between the syringes I just bought and the original ones is the fact that the new ones hold more, thus the barrel is a bit larger. However the length of the needle is 1/2" on both and the gauge is the same - 30G.

I didn't look in the bag when the pharmacist handed it to me, didn't realize until I got home that there was a slight difference, so I called the pharmacy right away as it was almost their closing time. She apologized profusely to me for not explaining why she gave me the different ones.

That taught me several lessons - don't wait until you run out of them to get more, and look in the bag before you leave the pharmacy counter! I'm learning - the hard way I guess.

Oh, by the way, tonight when I gave Gretel her insulin, I made sure the beveled side was facing up AND I warmed the insulin after it was in the syringe and it went well, so maybe those two things alone will make a difference.

Thanks all, for the input. Sometimes it takes a village doesn't it? ;)

Carolyn

ozzi 03-06-2010 08:11 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
 
Carolyn,
I was sooooo happy to read your post about Gretel's injection tonight! HURRAY! I hope that was the reason for her discomfort, and that all of her injections continue to go smoothly and fairly painlessly! Good job!! You did good!
Kevin

Margaret Boyle 03-07-2010 05:41 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzi (Post 25760)
Carolyn,
I was sooooo happy to read your post about Gretel's injection tonight! HURRAY! I hope that was the reason for her discomfort, and that all of her injections continue to go smoothly and fairly painlessly! Good job!! You did good!
Kevin


WELL DONE CAROLYN:D

Marg


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