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-   -   Gretel is now our angel (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5547)

CarolW 03-11-2010 11:08 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Good morning (where I am; could be noon or after where you are!) Carolyn and Gretel!

I am TOTALLY THRILLED that you ended up loving the SHORT needles. i absolutely ADORE them, myself, if one can ever adore a needle, but when you have to use them on your dog twice a day, well, YES, I ADORE them!

So glad these syringes worked out for you and Gretel, Carolyn. You're so right about us sharing these excruciating details, really to get somewhere beyond what a typical vet has time to teach us. Well; heck; vets do injections every day, but they're not all insulin-injections!

Today is my Hunt Day - I do weekly errands, because I get my Senior Discount on food and groceries, Thursdays. My drugstore isn't as convenient; I ONLY get my Senior Discount there on the last Thursday of the month, but thank goodness it's also Thursdays, because | can't afford the drive very often! So, I'll be out all day, and really tired when I get home.

And yesterday, I was out - OF IT - all day, culminating with the work of fixing a long-standing problem I made on my web site when I added the diabetes section. That's been a problem for two years now, and I didn't know how to fix it - it had to do with "File Not Found" - not in the diabetes section, but in the Old Home area. I FIXED IT! But I was short of sleep before, and now, I'm absolutely reeling, and will have to drive with great care, which I WILL DO, because Kumbi needs me! His DogDaddy George will stay with him today while I do my errands. I might be half-absent for some time to come, sleeping! But I so deeply appreciate all the posts here; Carolyn, you express yourself so well, and I know you'll be helping others along the way.

Hope Gretel is having a blast with those needles! I did NOT repeat the experiment I did with Kumbi the other morning; I went back to picking up a small fold of skin, and injecting as shown on my site.

it keeps amazing me, what a small fold I can pick up, and, by paying careful attention to placing the needle well against the base of the fold, near my thumb, and also to the angle of the syringe, THEN sliding the needle under the skin - THEN injecting at a moderate pace - Kumbi is SO comfortable! I really, really love it! And I think the SHORT, very thin needles (31-gauge) contribute a great deal to the dog's comfort.

Those syringes only hold 30 units, but that's actually a fair bit of insulin, especially, of the U-100 NPH insulin (which is what the syringes are designed for). (I knew people who used them with Vetsulin, which requires making a conversion, because the syringe barrel marks are all wrong for Vetsulin, a U-40 insulin. You can only deliver 12 units of Vetsuin from a 3/10 cc BD syringe such as the ones we're using.)

With Vetsulin fast disappearing, most people won't be faced with such concerns - our buddies Tami and Soaphie could be an exception, but Soaphie is a sizable dog, and I think likely, Tami is very skilled with injections - she's a skillful sort of person (Hi, Tami!)

When I run off at the mouth like this, it means I'm tired! Catch you all considerably later!

Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:03:15 (PST)

CoolGram 03-13-2010 06:47 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Hi Everyone,

Well, Gretel had a spot check of her BG on Wednesday and it was 383. I just don't understand why it's still so high. Now she's up to 10 units twice a day. However, she gained more weight again, she's up to 19 lbs., so I guess something is working. She goes for another spot check next Wednesday and I suppose another curve will soon follow it it's still not much lower.

Last evening when I was ready to give her injection, she very slowly and reluctantly came to me. I had the treat container sitting on the floor in front of her. Someone else on this forum (forgive me, but I can't remember who) gave me that idea. Gives her something else to focus on. Anyway, I gave her the injection, got absolutely no reaction from her (which is a good thing), then I praised her and told her she could get a treat out of the container. She stuck her nose in the container and I thought she got one out, then she ran to the hallway around the corner from the kitchen. I went to see if she did get one and she hadn't. I thought that was really odd, so I called her to come get one and when I called her she hid under the kitchen table. I figure that was because of one of two things. Either a) the injection went in so painlessly that she didn't think I gave it to her yet, and she didn't want it, or b) she did feel it and was afraid I was going to give her another one.

It just was an odd behavior that made me wonder what it was all about. I guess sometimes I try too hard to get inside her head, but if there's an issue, I want to try to address it before it gets out of hand. This morning was a normal routine, she took it like a champ, grabbed her treat and ran like the wind :). No two days alike!

I've seen some other conversations on the forum about the upcoming time change. I've decided to do things in the reverse of probably everyone else on the planet. But since I feed her at 6:30 in the morning, I really didn't want to be getting up at 5:30 the first day :mad: (I like mornings, but not THAT early!) We change our clocks tonight, so tomorrow I will feed her at 7:30 (which would be the equivalant of her 6:30), then just adjust it back by 5 or 10 mins. each feeding until we're back to 6:30 again. (Yes, I do realize that 6:30 after the time change will be the same as 5:30 before the change but it's a mind game I'm playing with myself!)

Hope you all have a great weekend! We're having heavy rain all weekend, so Miss Gretel will sooooooo not want to got out. That's always fun.


CarolW 03-13-2010 07:59 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Hey, Carolyn!

That's very interesting behavior you described about Gretel's response to the injection-treat combination! Often enough, we just can't know WHY a dog does certain things! Sometimes, if sometime later similar events occur, we can figure out why, but no guarantees on that one!

I like your time-change solution! Creative thinking!

Another solution I had thought of, and eventually discarded, but certainly COULD implement was,

Don't change anything! - in a manner of speaking.

So, when it's Standard Time, I'd be feeding at 6:30 (a.m. and p.m.), and shooting at 7:00 (a.m. and p.m.)

And when it's Daylight Time, I'd be feeding at 7:30 (a.m. and p.m.), and shooting at 8:00 (a.m. and p.m.)

Then I'd never have to re-schedule ANYTHING! Kumbi would be getting his meals and shots 12 hours apart regardless of what the CLOCK says!

Too bad that would only work for people who "never have to go out!"

Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:58:20 (PST - till tomorrow!)

CoolGram 03-13-2010 08:39 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Carol, I too have thought about not changing anything with the upcoming time change, it would sure be so much easier wouldn't it? But as you pointed out, the evening would be pretty much shot until you were finally ready to go out, not much point in going then. We really don't go out too often in the evening anyway, but there still would be occassion to now and then.

I have two grown daughters who live in the same town and they have both volunteered to learn how to inject Gretel in case I ever need a backup. I know if I could learn to do it, so could they, and I will teach them soon. But......I'm just not at a point yet where I feel comfortable turning her care over to someone else, even someone who I know loves Gretel dearly and she loves them. Guess I'm a bit of a control freak, but for now I can't help it. I think that will have to wait until her BG is under better control and things have settled down a bit.

peggy0 03-13-2010 11:13 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
I adjust by 15 minutes each feeding. Started yesterday :) We'll see how the doggies clock works.

CraigM 03-13-2010 11:51 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Getting a little off the subject, but....
I'm really looking forward to the time change. Might be able to get a few more minutes of sleep. If i'm still in bed around 7:30 Annie usually comes up on the bed and starts making her little noises: "Wake-up Dad. The sun is up and I NEED my breakfast" types of noise. With the sun not so bright, she might let me sleep? Naw, she's too smart for that! :)

Craig & Annie

CoolGram 03-17-2010 10:22 AM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Hello everyone,

Well, Gretel had another spot check today and her BG was 263. I know this is still elevated, but it is the best reading we've gotten so far (except for a 250 the day of bladder surgery and she hadn't eaten anything that day). I'm finally feeling like we're making progress. Her weight remained steady at 19 lbs. Her insulin has been increased from 10 to 11 units twice daily. Maybe this will be the last increase she'll need to get her BG in line (keeping my fingers crossed).

Also, the injections with the short needle are going extremely well. Most often I get no reaction whatsoever from her, maybe once in a while a little twitch when the needle goes in but that's it.

Something I noticed on CarolW's website the other day when I watched a schnauzer being given an injection. The vet pulled the skin up into a tent, but then after the needle went in and before pushing the plunger, he released the skin. Is that the way all of you do it? I had always continued to hold the skin up until after injecting the insulin. After watching that video, I tried it that way and it worked just fine. Just wondering if there's a particular benefit to doing it like on the video?

Another good thing (isn't it wonderful, all this good news for a change!), was that I found that I really don't have to have this huge amount of skin to create a tent, and I credit the shorter needles with that. I have been able to move the injection site further down below the scruff area even though there isn't as much loose skin there, but it's just enough to slide that needle in. Wonder if that's why the BG was lower today, better absorption at that site????


ozzi 03-20-2010 08:46 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!

This is all GREAT news!! Woo hoo! I understand how exciting it is to be going in the right direction! Just like Gretel, Ozzi had some numbers recently in the low 200's and I was thrilled considering they had jumped to the high 500's! What I am learning about canine diabetes is that it's about baby steps. There really are no giant leaps that happen quickly, because those cause a host of other problems!

I'm happy to hear that the injections are going well for you! I have seen the tent method that you are doing, and have not done it myself. I learned to "bunch" the skin and inject at a 45 degree angle so I've just continued to do that. Either way works well and there is no benefit to either as far as I know. The important thing is that the insulin is injected subcutaneously (under the skin) rather than into the muscle. So, from what I understand, the method you use should be what's more comfortable for you and your pooch!

I was taught (by the vet) to inject in the neck area as well, but have read that the absorption there is not as good as other areas. From what I have read, injecting below the scruff area is more effective because the absorption is better, so maybe that is why the numbers are better, in addition to the extra unit she is getting!

I like reading your posts. Look how far you have come!!!!

Margaret Boyle 03-21-2010 12:20 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
Hi Carolyne,

You are doing really well with Gretel good numbers.:)

I wish Lucy's were as good, some days good and others not so good :(

Your question about the tenting of the skin, if I tent I always let the skin go once the needle is in. I read about this in an article cannot remember where, but it said to release the tent once the needle is under the skin.;)

Also Lucy had lost some weight and I did not tent for a while, I just took a tiny fold and went in parallel to the skin.

The scruff of the neck is not good for absorption, you have lots of areas all down each side and there is better absorption.:)

You are doing great.

Hugs Marg

eyelostit 03-21-2010 01:24 PM

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel - Injection problems brewing!
I do the tent, inject and release.
If this would hurt Niki as I put the needle in and she winces or give a little cry I change the spot.


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