Jenny Diabetic & Cushings Poodle is an Angel...

[Judi]

My poodle Jenny was diagnosed 3 weeks ago, in January she tested negative. Her blood sugar has consistently stayed in the 400-500 range.

My vet wants me to keep her on the Hills W/D. I asked him about the Blue Buffalo or an Ultra food I was referred to and he told me too much protein could make her kidneys shut down.

Right now she eats the w/d so we are back on it. I have been varying her food since I had purchased a bunch of others to try. I think this has contributed to her insulin not doing the job. We are currently at 3 units twice a day.

has anyone else ever heard that too much protein can make their kidneys shut down? I'm gonna stick with the w/d for her. My other poodle hates all of the canned food. He is not diabetic but getting him to eat when she is has been a challenge. We can't leave it out or she will eat it all then puke and i worry about low blood sugar if she pukes it all up.

sorry about the long first post. Judi

[CarolW]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

I've heard too that too much protein in a food can affect the kidneys. Some sites say that's not so - selling their own stuff! (But that's the Champion pet foods site, that sells Orijen and Acana - grain-free, very high in protein - and fat, too; not suitable for diabetic dogs).

It certainly would be good if you can get your other poodle to eat at the same time as the diabetic one. I used to separate my two dogs, feeding each in their crates, one with the door tied open; then I wouldn't let the second one out till the other had finished eating.

Dogs usually can adjust to changed feeding times, if you keep working on it; picking up the food, and not offering more till the next meal-time often does the job, and for a Poodle who isn't diabetic, that would probably be a harmless thing to do.

Around here, we love long posts - yours is short; haha! - reason: the more information, the better! If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, that would help us help you. For instance:

1) How old is Jenny?
2) Is she spayed?
3) How much does Jenny weigh?
4) What times of day do you feed Jenny (and how often)?
5) Do you feed her any snacks?
6) What kind of insulin are you giving Jenny? (I note, 3 units)
7) How many times a day do you inject the insulin?

The common protocol is to feed twice a day, and give insulin very shortly afterwards.

If you read around the forum, you'll see that the diabetic dogs here are on a wide variety of foods. It seems usually, the insulin dose gets tweaked first, starting low and going slow, so as not to overshoot the correct dose for the dog. Once the BG (Blood Glucose) levels seem close to working well, then the food gets tweaked, to make fine adjustments.

Making one change at a time helps us figure out just what is affecting the BG levels.

It's early days in the diagnosis, and I'll bet you and Jenny will do very well! Likely, your other Poodle will adapt also. (I LOVED having two dogs, but now can only manage one.)

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:50:30 (PDT)

[Judi]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

Hi Carol & Harry's Mom: thanks for your replies.

Harry's Mom: My Jenny has high liver levels and takes hormones for her incontinence but has never had kidney disease. I think the vet is just being careful since she seems to be falling apart. He also believes that Hills is the gold standard and is loyal to them (and sells them). I'm going to tough it out for a couple more weeks.

I really hope taking the food away from my other dog early works. He is the most persistent whiner around but he needs to lose some weight. I'm hoping we can keep him from becoming diabetic

Carol:Until I started reading around here I didn't realize there is so much I don't know.

1) How old is Jenny? Jenny is 11 this month
2) Is she spayed? yes, she is spayed
3) How much does Jenny weigh? She weighs 8 pounds, she had been 9.5 lost since diagnosis. they say this is a good weight for her but if she got a little lighter they'd be happier.
4) What times of day do you feed Jenny (and how often)? I feed her at 6 am and 6 pm and give the insulin then
5) Do you feed her any snacks? We've always given our dogs the freeze dried liver treats. I cut each one into 3 pieces but haven't been able to take that away from her. She is a foodie
6) What kind of insulin are you giving Jenny? (I note, 3 units) The Humulin N Insulin right after she eats. I try to wait 5 to 10 minutes now that she is up to 3 units
7) How many times a day do you inject the insulin? twice a day

I'm kind of gobsmacked that her levels didn't change at all. My vet is going to call me Thursday. For her to go from 110 in January to holding steady in the 500 and 600's while we are increasing the insulin is mind boggling.

I got a new bottle of insulin from Wal Mart tonight since I had dropped the last bottle twice and wondered if I had disturbed it too much.

I asked the vet tech if many of their patients check blood glucose at home and she said none. Today was our 3rd blood glucose curve at the vets in 4 weeks. The vet said there was no curve, 550 in the morning, holding in the 500's, 625 this afternoon. They let me pick her up early.

I'm so happy to have found this forum. Anything I can do to get her blood sugars settled so we have a chance at saving her eyesight would be a blessing.

Thanks again, Judi

[HarrysMom]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

FYI Blue Buffalo weight control only has 20% protein - not that much higher than W/D. You would sometimes worry with 30-35%+ protein for some dogs.
I did a lot of research on the protein content of different dog food, and Blue Buffalo weight control formula was one of the lowest (you can get some 18% protein - Natural Balance and Innova Senior, but that would be it).

[Judi]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

FYI Blue Buffalo weight control only has 20% protein - not that much higher than W/D. You would sometimes worry with 30-35%+ protein for some dogs.
I did a lot of research on the protein content of different dog food, and Blue Buffalo weight control formula was one of the lowest (you can get some 18% protein - Natural Balance and Innova Senior, but that would be it).

thanks, I'm going to look for that, it is not the one I tried! appreciate it

[CarolW]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

Jenny SHOULD be okay on the WD, or the Blue Buffalo Weight Control - either one. Thanks for answering those questions. Everything seems to me well in order, except, of course, that Jenny is running rather high BG levels. We'll be wanting to keep our eyes on that. I suppose there's a CHANCE she drops to low levels sometime in the day or night, setting her off into Somogyi rebound, for which I can't immediately provide a link, but somebody here can.

Dr. Somogyi discovered that when BG levels drop too far, or too fast, the liver dumps glucose (and various hormones) into the bloodstream, in an effort to save the body from hypoglycemia - sending into hyPERglycemia instead, and the cycle repeats.

When this occurs, the solution is to LOWER, rather than to raise, the insulin dose. Three units is on the high side for an 8-pound dog - it's over a third of a unit per pound of dog. That's fine for some dogs, though in general, it has to be worked up to, because the dog's body requires time to get accustomed to handling injected insulin.

If you can test a few times, say every half hour - around the time you think Jenny is lowest in BG levels, you MIGHT catch a low in there somewhere. I do avoid testing too much, when possible, because no matter how cooperative the dog is, it's a stress on the dog.

But it might be worth identifying Jenny's nadir time (approximate; it can vary day to day, too).

The dried liver snacks are probably okay, but can make it difficult to assess BG levels! Since the dried liver keeps well, could you try using eensy bits of boiled chicken breast (skinless), or even steamed broccoli florets, or some other veggie, instead? That might help you when trying to determine changes to BG levels.

Good for you for learning to test Jenny's levels yourself. I think there's no more useful tool to help us with diabetic dogs!

Jenny wasn't diagnosed as diabetic in January, was she? A level of 110 would be normal, then.

Keep up the good work; we'll be with you!

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:18:45 (PDT)

[jesse girl]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

there may be some rebounding going on as carrol suggested

when you take you dog to the vet the event may have already happened and your stuck in high numbers for a couple days

what I saw with my jesse was she would go low for a day then be wildly high for 2 days and then start the cycle again if you tested on the day she was high it would give the appearance that she needed more insulin but it was the opposite she needed less

my jesse went from 16 units a day of insulin to about 4.5 a day

we just kept giving her more and more

until we started testing on a regular bases we probably would have never figured it out just going to the vets every couple weeks would have made it a crap shoot and you dont test at night so you have no clue whats going on at that time I wonder what a doctor would say to a humane diabetic dont home test youll be ok I dont know any humane diabetics that dont test our dogs should have the same advantage

home testing is the best path to regulation and keeping your friend safe

[pat3332]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Thanks Carol, I'll be sure to tell that to Bailey who loves his Orijen Senior. Maybe that's why his levels are so inconsistent! His kidneys seem to be fine however.

Most studies, have shown that high protein food have no affect on dogs with healthy kidneys. If anyone knows of a good scientific study that definitely shows that high protein food causes kidney problems, please post it. I don't believe studies done on dogs with existing kidney problems have been able to prove that high protein foods do, or don't cause problems in those dogs, so I don't think it's recommended for dogs with existing problems.

I don't believe Champion Foods (Orijen & Acana) have done, commissioned or published any studies of their own. They mainly quote other well regarded studies and I think you'll have trouble finding any recent studies that prove that high protein foods cause kidney problems and usually they end up proving the opposite. Champion is a very reputable company and they have refused to do things in the past that could have increased their sales because there was possibility of it affecting the quality of the food. Most reports that high protein foods cause kidney problems are unproved and based on rumor and hearsay. If a dog went into kidney failure while eating a high protein food that doesn't prove that the food caused the kidney failure. I've already lost one Rottie to kidney failure who never had high protein food. Maybe that was the problem.

I don't think high protein foods like Orijen are the best choice for all diabetic dogs, but they do have their place for those dogs that don't tolerate grains. I don't think the problem is the high protein as much as the higher fat content that seems to go along with the high protein grain free foods. I do think that there is a trade off. Bailey doesn't tolerate corn and all the grains I've tried to feed him tend to cause his glucose levels to spike unacceptably high, so grain free foods are my best option since I'm too poor to feed raw and too lazy to cook his food. Grain free foods tend to be higher in protein and fat and the Orijen Senior has the lowest fat I've found in a grain free kibble, even though I wish it was lower and may be too high for some dogs. I add fiber in the form of steamed yellow squash, Quinoa and Psyllium husks. (Thanks Patty).

W/D works for many diabetic dogs, but many dogs don't like it and won't eat it. It lists corn as its first ingredient, so that rules it out for Bailey. It's not that he won't eat it, the problem is that it irritates his bowel and he just stops eating altogether until I give him something with no corn. If Jenny is eating it, I'd stick with it unless she does stop eating it and continue to monitor her glucose readings. If Jenny does start having trouble with the W/D, I would try the Blue Buffalo weight control diet because a lot of people have had good results with it. I can't think of their exact name for it right now, but if you decide to change, many of us can find it for you. One reason a lot of vets recommend the W/D however is because the sell it through their clinic, so profit from selling it.

Aside from my giving her a hard time for stating rumor and hearsay instead of fact and accusing a reputable company of doing things it hasn't, Carol has asked some good questions that we need to know in order to help and give good suggestions and recommendations. Be honest Carol, you've missed me haven't you.

The most important thing you can do is be consistent in everything you do. Don't make changes for no reason, or just for the sake of change. Don't change too quickly, give what you're doing a chance to work or fail, but be flexible enough to make changes if they are necessary. I've made almost all of the above mistakes and I'm hoping you benefit from my experience.

[CarolW]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Pat - hahaha! WELL-SAID!

You remarked: "I don't think high protein foods like Orijen are the best choice for all diabetic dogs, but they do have their place for those dogs that don't tolerate grains. I don't think the problem is the high protein as much as the higher fat content that seems to go along with the high protein grain free foods."

I'm glad you remarked on that; I would have been afraid to recommend Orijen (or Acana) primarily, because of the high fat content.

And you also remarked: "Aside from my giving her a hard time for stating rumor and hearsay instead of fact and accusing a reputable company of doing things it hasn't, Carol has asked some good questions that we need to know in order to help and give good suggestions and recommendations. Be honest Carol, you've missed me haven't you. "

I have, indeed, Pat, missed you! So glad you're back posting.

Uh, oh, you're right; I did state rumor and hearsay, though I didn't know what else to do, as those rumors are everywhere - including in supposedly reputable places!

I surely didn't intend to accuse Champion Pet foods of being any less than strictly honest and straight-forward; if I'd thought anything else, I wouldn't have changed Camellia over to one of their foods, from another company! (And she seems to be doing REALLY well, on Acana Wild Prairie, though it's very early days - she's only been on that exclusively since Sunday evening - but already, I think I see benefits.)

I gotta rush off, but had to respond to your wonderful post! I really miss you when you're not posting!

Camellia sends her regards to you and Bailey, and so do I!

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:04:05 (PDT)

[Judi]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

thanks Carol and Jesse's girl. that is interesting about the rebound I had no clue. I can't believe you were able to lower the dose so much for your dog Jesse's girl. wow.

The vet called last night and wants us to go to 4 units twice a day. He said he won't get too worried until we hit her weight at each dose (8 units) yikes. I'm out of town today but will get a kit and get my nerve up. She is such a good girl.

thank you all for this information and the reassurance. it helps so much.

Judi

[CarolW]

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?

Hi Judi,

I hope you will WAIT to raise Jenny's dose, till after you get a monitoring kit and learn to test Jenny's BG levels yourself.

That curve the vet did doesn't appear to have readings close enough together - nor overnight - to warrant a raise of insulin dose from three to a whopping four units of insulin- all at once!

Among vets who really specialize in canine diabetes, the word is, to start low, and go slow, which means, when they are approaching the correct insulin dose for the dog, they will likely raise the dose by QUARTER-UNITS, NOT by a whopping whole unit - which can just as easily shoot past the correct dose, and risk serious hypoglycemia.

We have lots of dogs on the forum whose vets have raised doses that fast - then the dogs have suffered low readings, and it takes a week or so for the dog to get back on track, after the dose is LOWERED instead of raised.

It's the middle of the night here, and I need to go back to bed, and I still don't have that link on Somogyi rebound, but I strongly suspect it as a possibility; not saying Jenny is necessarily in rebound.

She should, though, at least be safe (I hope), if you hold the dose steady at three units for now, till you can get a meter and test strips, and test Jenny by doing a full curve, yourself.

I just HATE raining on the parade of such a new member as you! But I'm deeply concerned about Jenny's safety. It won't hurt her to run those higher BGs for a few days.

Hope you'll be back soon, so you can ask for more help!

Camellia sends her regards to you and Jenny, and so do I.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:30:15 (PDT)

[Patty]

Re: Question about protein in diets

I don't have a lot of time to reply this morning but wanted to say welcome! I do agree with Carol in that I would not raise her insulin before having a full curve done. You can only raise insulin based on the lowest level of the day and a full unit in a small dog can have a large impact.

I'll try to get back here later today and read up some more on Jenny.
Take care,
Patty

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

thank you all for cleaning up my thread and the excellent information.

We did raise her insulin to 4 units per dose as her vet suggested since she has had 3 glucose curves at the vet over the last 4 weeks with no change whatsoever. I just got back and am going to scan the blood glucose monitoring threads today so I can go buy a tester and get started. My husband really doesn't want us to do this because it seems like we are poking and prodding her all the time. But we need to know what we are dealing with to get her insulin right. I hope I can find a place to get a good blood sample without too much pain.

We did leave the full syringe out while she ate so it was a little warmer when we injected.

I'm so glad I found this forum and thanks Pat for the information on the high protein and the kidneys. I'd noticed the fat content in some of the high protein foods so think we will stick with the W/D right now for consistency.

[Patty]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Oh good. I'm glad she's had several curves done thus far. It's really important to based the decision to raise insulin on the lowest blood sugar of the day. Would you happen to have the results of her curves done?

I would use caution as you get closer to approaching the "right" dose in using smaller increments. I've noticed a lot of vets move in full unit changes but you can adjust in 1/4 unit increments even by eyeballing a dose between the 1/2u marks.

Something else to consider if her levels continue to remain high is checking for a urinary tract infection as they are more common in our diabetics. Infections can cause some resistance to insulin.

I think you'll find that once you are able to home test that it will actually benefit Jenny in the long run as she'll feel better when you are able to make changes that keep her blood sugar in better control without having to spend the day at the vet. Have you seen the videos on the various places some people test here? This is the link on testing: http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html

Keep us posted on how she's doing on her new dose!
Take care,
Patty

[CarolW]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Sounds as though you basically have things under good control, Judi. I'd missed the fact that Jenny has already had three curves. I stlll feel concerned about raising the dose so much all at once, but if you can learn to test Jenny's BG levels, you can monitor, for safety.

Do keep syrup handy, and if Jenny shows signs of hypoglycemia (staggering, trembling), rub about a teaspoon of the syrup on her gums, and as soon as she can swallow safely, feed her a high-protein, high-carbohydrate treat.

Testing on the lip is painless, because there are so few nerve-endings there. I used Kumbi's lip - was amazed - he really felt NO PAIN at all!

Yell when you want some assistance with testing! And keep up the good work!

Regards to you and Jenny, from Kwali and Kumbi at the Bridge, and Camellia and me on Earth.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:14:17 (PDT)