sores and diabetes?

[stapleonv]

My 10 yo catahoula was diagnosed last Monday. We never knew he was sick, and he appearently went blind as well. He was over weight during the winter and lost it in the spring and then what seemed to be out of the blue, when we got up Sunday he seemed confused and was running into things. We immediatly took him to the vets and they ran tests and he came back with diabete's. They have him on 8cc of Relion and he seems to be doing fine. But wasn't sure whether he might get his sight back, doesn't seem to be cataracts so am at a loss as whether it's permenant. I'm also paying $90 for the Relion and it looks like from the posts that I can get it all walmart, do I need a prescription for it, and do they take prescriptions from vets? It has been a huge shock to us so i'm very relieved to find this site, as I've never even heard of dogs getting this.

[kidpwr4]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Some of the senior members will be able to help you with your questions regarding your dog's sight, but I just thought I'd offer what I know about the insulin.

I don't know if laws are different in different states, but when my dog, Jasmine, was first diagnosed, my vet wrote me a scrip for Humulin N which I brought to WalMart to be filled. It is the Relion brand and it's less than $25/bottle. I found out now from them that I do NOT need a prescription for it; it's over-the-counter - same with the syringes. I just bought some more without a scrip last night with no problem.

Welcome to the forum! There are WONDERFUL, knowledgeable and extremely helpful people on here that will help you every step of the way with ANY questions you may have! They are educating me, my pharmacy and my vet all at the same time

[CarolW]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Laws vary in different states, but you could ask at Walmart to find out if they require a prescription from your vet or not, for the ReliOn (Humulin-N) insulin. There maybe several kinds of ReliOn - that is, plain (Humulin-N), or with percentages of faster-acting insulin - that's what you DON'T want (such as, 70/30 - unless later it turns out you do want that - doubtful).

Did your vet say, 8 units per injection? Twice a day, 12 hours apart? Right after meals, or shortly after meals?

If you care to give us more information, we can help you better. For instance, how much does your Catahoula weigh? Do be as specific as you can; for instance, what is he eating for his meals, and how much? Are you feeding anything between meals? It's wise to avoid that till you get the diabetes under basic control.

If your vet took measurements of your dog's blood glucose levels (blood sugar), see if you can get copies of those numbers, and post them, with the times those measurements were taken.

For now, knowing his weight will be the biggest help. And what food he is eating, and whether you're injecting twice a day, 12 hours apart, at his meal-times.

A Big, Fat, Welcome to you - how wonderful that you found us, as, in my opinion, this is the finest forum on canine diabetes I know of.

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:55:40 (PDT)

[Patty]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Carol has already asked the important questions so I just wanted to welcome you!

Also regarding your dog's vision, did the vet look into his eyes with an ophthalmoscope? If you have a good veterinary Ophthalmologist in your area and can afford a visit, they often can give a more detailed assessment of your dog's vision.

Again welcome to you!
Patty

[stapleonv]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

ok more information, he weight is 87 pounds and I'm now feeding blue buffalo, I was feeding pedigree before. Changed him after I researched dog foods, and reading the post's on this website. Trying to feed 12 hours apart, and give 8cc about 15 minutes after he eats. It's Relion. He goes from lethargic to somewhat normal. He definitly cannot see, the vet didn't seem concerned and he goes back on the 8th for all day monitering to see how he's doing. As soon as I get the money I'll check on opthomoligist's for him. I'm hoping that it's temporary but have a feeling it's not. His count was over 800 when they called with the diagnosis. I want to learn how to check his blood sugar but dont know what the numbers are supposed to be. I really apprectiate everyone's help. Bammy's mom.

[CarolW]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Hi Bammy's mama,

I want to get some things straight here. You say Bammy weighs 87 pounds.

And that you're directed to inject 8 cc (that's cubic centimeters, which is the same as milliliters - ml) per injection, twice a day (I gather, 12 hours apart, or as close to that as you can manage).

Commonly, people starting out with a newly-diagnosed diabetic dog talk about cc, but really mean, units of insulin. There's a big difference, so we need to know which you are talking about.

A vial of ReliOn (Humulin-N) typically contains 10 cc (10 ml - same thing). I want to make sure you're not injecting most of a full vial of insulin with each injection!

If you look at the label on the vial, it should say how much insulin the vial starts out containing. Should be, about 10 cc (or 10 ml; same thing).

Now look at your syringes. They should be marked with their capacity. I'm wondering if the capacity of the syringes you're using is one ml, or one cc. I would GUESS it's that.

You'd have to be using a huge syringe to be injecting 8 cc per injection!

So I THINK you're talking about, not cc, but UNITS of insulin, when you give the number 8. One unit of insulin contains 1/22 mg of biologically-active insulin.

Could you, then, please look at the vial, and at the syringe, and report the capacities of each?

By the way, this initial confusion about cc and units is VERY common! You are not alone, if you have those mixed up. It would be so nice if vets would explain! But if THEY don't, WE will attempt to do it.

Awaiting your further information on capacity of the insulin vial, and capacity of the syringe. I guess you're measuring, in the syringe, to the number 8 on the barrel. Is that right?

Wishing you and Bammy the best of luck! Are the injections going okay, or do you need help?

Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:22:34 (PDT)

[spiritdog6]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Hi, I believe my very first dog (30 yrs. ago) was at least part Catahoula, by her splotchy coloring. At the time I had been told she was an Australian Shep. but that was a long time ago and after seeing pictures of these dogs, I know she was at the very least part of this breed. Smartest dog I ever had!

My poodle was diagnosed 1 year ago with diabetes. He got the bluish eyes, and has been partially blind for a year.

Recently my other dog, (lucky me, not) became diabetic as well. His eyes turned bluish, so I thought he would be like my other dog, partially blind. I was ever so wrong. He went totally blind, very quickly.

We had our first visit with the "eye doctor' this week. I was told my poodle had "old age cataracts" not diabetic cataracts. That is why he is still able to see some for the past year. My other dog does have diabetic cataracts, and it happened super fast. This eye doctor can do surgery on him, but I am getting another opinion next week, I want to be as certain as I can that he is a good candidate for it. While some dogs & owners do ok being blind, we, me, and he are not doing well, he is more of a "sight" dog, not a smell dog. So this has been a HUGE impact on both of us.

Definitely see an eye doctor for your dog. There are many eye disease, glaucoma, detached retina, cataracts, etc.

We also use Relion Humulin N from Walmart with no prescription. I was very surprised at the beginning of this that no prescription is necessary in my state. Be sure to get the exact same needles every time. I take in an old packet to the pharmacist every time to make sure I am getting the correct needles. Same gauge, length, etc. The last time I went to Walgreens I really had to watch out as the pharmacist tried to sell me different needles, and if I had not had my empty package with me, I might have been sold the wrong ones! They don't think "dog" they are thinking "human".

All this is a lot to take in, I really know that. Having 2 diabetic dogs is tough for me.
Hang in there.

[k9diabetes]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Welcome to you and Bammy!

Chances are the blindness is from diabetes-induced cataracts but the vet should be able to tell you for sure whether that is it.

Blood sugar of 800 is very high... did he have any ketones? Did the vet ask you to monitor for ketones with urine testing?

Normal blood sugar for a nondiabetic dog is pretty similar to humans, approximately 80 to maybe 140.

With diabetic dogs, we try to keep all blood sugar at 100 or higher when measured because it varies naturally from day to day. And then in terms of how high, a lot depends on the dog. The ideal would be to keep it under 180 at all times. Often that's not possible so you try to get as close to that as you can without having any low blood sugar.

Buying a meter and testing him at home will not only save you money but give you so much more peace of mind.

Let us know how his curve comes out next week.

Natalie

[stapleonv]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

I meant 8 units not cc's, sorry I have horses so I'm used to that reference!! Friday night had to run him back to the vet as he had blood in his urine, they gave me antibiotics for him, and he seems to be better. He's hungry and is more active. They eye sight loss happend in one day as far as I can tell so my best guess is the high sugar level caused the retinas to detach?? His pupils are blown and haven't gone down. The vets have not been much help, I wanted to get a glucose meter to keep an eye on his levels so I could accuretly give them information on him, and they wanted to know why I would want to do that and where I heard about it, not sure why they would care that I want to take a proactive approach to the disease. He's still has a large urine out put and is drinking a lot of water, should that taper off as the insuline start working or are they always like that? thanks for everyones help, Bammies mom

[CarolW]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Horses and cc? I love it!

Glad to know it's eight units [grin]

My vets always told me - did so repeatedly - that in the presence of infection, blood glucose levels fluctuate unpredictably. Before Kumbi was well-regulated as a normal thing, they cut his insulin dose, to make SURE he didn't have a hypoglycemic episode.

If Bammy is still on eight units (twice daily?) - that's a low enough dose - around a tenth of a unit per pound - so I wouldn't be concerned about a possible hypoglycemic episode - at least, not much! - in the sense that I don't think you'd have to cut his dose of insulin to avoid hypoglycemia. That's just my GUESS, though! Bammy is still so new to having diabetes and to the effort to regulate, that probably nothing is very predictable right now. Again, that's my GUESS, and I'm not an expert.

You reported:

"The vets have not been much help, I wanted to get a glucose meter to keep an eye on his levels so I could accurately give them information on him, and they wanted to know why I would want to do that and where I heard about it, not sure why they would care that I want to take a proactive approach to the disease."

Oh, dear. I'm sorry to hear that. Vets willing to work as our team-mates are apparently worth their weight in gold - and might be too rare for MY liking. I'd guess you'd enjoy Dr. Nancy Kay's book, _Speaking for Spot_, and her blog, too, which you can pick up links to here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php#nancykay

The next question would be whether your vet(s) would be capable of coming along with you and actually working as your team-mates. Vets do vary on their abilities to do this. Unfortunately (or maybe it's good), a lot of this has, I think, to do with attitude. As in, "I am the boss." Or, "I know more about your dog than you do." This second can never be true, as you LIVE WITH your dog, and the first isn't true for the same reason, but also, because our vets are our hired service-providers - or, servants!

Things surely can get awkward when we hire real experts to assist us!

Keep up the good work! You should find lots of backing, here on the forum. And do keep asking questions; we'll all do our best to help; a few here are deeply more experienced than I am.

Mon, 2 May 2011 14:50:01 (PDT)

[stapleonv]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

I did talk with walmart and they will supply me with insulin and needles so the cost issue has at least become a non issue. No prescription needed. He seems to be doing better, day seven of his insulin 8 units, not cc's twice a day, 15 minutes after he eats, and a change of dog food for the better. He seems to be adjusting to the eye sight loss, he still becomes confused which I would assume is normal. But his energy level is up and he greets me at the door when I get home, something I thought I wouldn't get to see again. Still a lot of water in take and urine out put, but all in all from the stories i've been reading isn't bad for one week. Thanks to everyone for your support and help, it's been invaluable. Bammies mom

[jjefferjo]

Re: new diabetes diagnosis

Good for you,
that greeting at the door is always an indicator of sorts for me.
Jj

[stapleonv]

sores and diabetes?

Haven't been here much, other than keeping up with new post's. Bammie has been doing very well over-all and other than a few ups and downs, seems to be staying realtively healthy. He has recently developed sores on his back leg, just above his paw, on the back part of his leg. Was wondering if it's part of the side affects of the diabete's or is it just a coincidence? He's still recieving 8units 2x a day, and is doing well on Blue Buffalo dry food. Over all I think things are going as well as they could be under the circumstances, thanks to the help I've recieved here. Just wanted to say "thanks" if anyone has any ideas on the sores let me know, Bammies mom.

[HarrysMom]

Re: sores and diabetes?

I think diabetes causes slow wound healing, but I don't think it causes sores. Has your vet seen it? What does it look like? There are also many types of benign and malignant skin tumors that could look like sores.

[CarolW]

Re: sores and diabetes?

Welcome back! Thanks for the update!

I don't think having diabetes is likely any kind of cause for sores on the body anywhere. But circulation in the extremities may be somewhat reduced by having diabetes, which could mean sores take hold more easily in diabetic dogs, and might be harder to get rid of.

So I'd be wondering if Bammie has sores caused by contact with something, and I'd be wondering, if so, what that something might be. And if I really wanted to know, and certainly if the sores were bugging him, I'd talk to my vet, and ask about bringing him in, so the vet could have a look.

Especially if there's any infection, Bammie may need a course of antibiotics to get rid of the sores. there might also be other things you can do to help heal the sores - depending on what their source is. For instance, perhaps soaking in warm (not hot) water with Epsom salts MIGHT help heal sores - but I would NOT do that without first checking with my vet! (You wouldn't want anything nasty to be spread by soaking, for instance.)

Please report back if/when you find out what these sores are, or if your vet has ideas about how to heal them.

Hope Bammie feels better soon! Is he chewing or licking at the sores?
Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:45:56 (PDT)