Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

[CraigM]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

60 lbs x .2 = 12 unit. Lola was on a higher dose because of the infection.

Keep in mind the .2 units per pound recommendation is for a starting dosage. Many / most will require more, sometimes much more than the starting dosage.

Craig

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

What kind of treat or snack would have a better chance of lowering glucose? I make treats for her that are just wheat flour, oats, canned pumpkin, cinnamon and an egg. I’m not sure what the flour will do to her glucose levels though.

[CraigM]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

What kind of treat or snack would have a better chance of lowering glucose? I make treats for her that are just wheat flour, oats, canned pumpkin, cinnamon and an egg. I’m not sure what the flour will do to her glucose levels though.

As an experiment, I’d try what you make or a Milkbone type of treat, or maybe 2-4 tablespoons of the normal meal. My thought is just to add a little carbohydrate so the body doesn’t release stored carbohydrates. Of course this is an experiment, and might not do what you want.

As mentioned before, I’m a type-2 diabetic. My morning readings are usually in the 130s (higher than I like for MYSELF). The other nite I woke at 4am and tested at 120. I then ate a small piece of cheese (first thing that came to hand, no real thought) and then retested at 8am: 118. So, instead of my typical 130ish I was 118. Not a big difference, but it was something. Of course this was just one test (plan to do more), but I don’t plan to get out of bed at 4am every morning😉

Some human diabetic books suggest eating every four hours (actually, never going longer than four hours between eating something). The between meal snacks would be tiny, like a bite of cheese or 6 almonds.

Craig

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

It seems like anytime I’m optimistic about where it’s heading something else happens. She developed an angry red rash on her stomach today and her eyes got so much worse just today. It feels like something else is going on with her besides just diabetes.

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

I copied this from another thread...

I am so tempted to change my dog’s food, but she’s so newly diagnosed and not at all under control yet. It just seems like I should try to get a handle on one thing before I change something else. But I do wonder if her food may be contributing to her fasting BG being so high. Is changing diet a good way to get fasting BG down?

Right. It’s best to change one thing at a time.

Concentrating on the insulin, her BG readings a few days ago were...

6:50a wake up 460
7/7:20a eat and insulin
10:30a 161
10:50a 130
11:25a 129
11:56a 115

Novolin 70/30 is 70% intermediate acting N and 30% fast acting R. The Fast acting component is normally used to correct a rise in BG after eating. The problem is that not all dogs spike after eating. It’s pretty likely that 30% R is too much and is causing her BG to drop too fast. The remaining N is then running out, causing the higher fasting number. If this is true, changing to straight Novolin N should help the situation.

It wouldn’t hurt to try. Other than fasting, her numbers are in a good range.

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

It wouldn’t hurt to try. Other than fasting, her numbers are in a good range.

I did reduce her dose to 16 because she was getting a little too low during the afternoon. She had a bad day on Tues which probably was a fluke. It’s only been a few days at 16 but she’s not dropping as fast/low now. I think I’ll probably need to take it up to 17 but I’m giving it a week. She’s still in high 400s or even high 500s in the final hours before her next dose. And her BG is so volatile. A 10minute wall can still drop her 100 pts. It seems so unhealthy.
So you think N would possibly address high fasting BG better than a diet change? I just wondered if maybe something in her food wasn’t digesting so it was sitting in her stomach raising her BG 9-12 hrs later. I don’t even know if that makes scientific sense though.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

Jesse had a similar curve in the beginning on just N insulin . Big drop after food and insulin . I had a similar mindset that food was being digested late and nothing in the beginning . I tried all kinds of things as far as food that could be digested quickly . Like bread , pancakes , potatoes ,white rice and they did not have much impact on that early drop . What i ended up doing was splitting her dose half with dinner the other half 2 hours later . which helped

Now i believe the problem for your pup is being started on an insulin thats based on fast early digestion turning into sugar . Should have been started on N insulin . See what type of curve it displays . If you have a big rise after food and shot you could add R insulin .

Big drops after food and insulin are tough to solve. Your pups drop may have been artificially created with the R component of the insulin you are using

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

So for anyone who has tried both a 70/30 and N, did you pup need more, less or same on N as compared to the 70/30 mix?
I’m so scared of making a change that raises her up into 600/700+ range again. She already has cataracts developing and her hind legs have issues. I hate the thought of doing something that raises her into danger zones and speeds up that damage. But I do know this process is also about trial and error.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

Whats the weight of your dog ? You can get a starting dose my multiplying .2 by the weight of your dog . Now you could go probably higher to start but you cant no for sure what a starting dose would be with just N insulin

Now if you are worried about higher numbers you can buy some R insulin separately if you need it . if you do see a substantial rise after meal and shot you could add some to the N insulin .You can mix them together or give the separately . You may want to fight to not use it in the beginning just to see how N is working but you can have it if you need it . There are forum members experienced with it

The problem i surmise is at the beginning you saw cataracts and your vet felt you needed to slow down the process and the reason they went with 70/30 to get the numbers down faster and it did do that for part of the day but it may have created the instability in sugar you are seeing

giving N insulin can be a slower process and you may see higher sugar across the board until you find the correct dose . Maybe you can get lucky and find that dose fairly quickly with the info based on the 70/30 but if you start out with to much insulin that can lengthen the regulation process and could put you dog at risk to lower sugar

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

She’s 61 lbs. We started at 12 units on 70/30 and moved up to 16 after a week. Had slowly raised her to 19, but she was dropping too low at the 5-6 hr mark so we went back to 16 to be safe. I was going to raise up to 17 starting tonight because her low is around 200 at 16. No increase/decrease budges the numbers in the final 2-3 hrs before she’s due for her next dose.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

your original starting dose is correct and looks like you maybe able to have a starting dose between 12 and 16 units . Now some dogs do end on a dose thats lower than the normal starting dose as my jesse has. I Might try 12 units to start and do a curve in 3 days .If high across the board (everything above 300)you maybe able to go up to 2 units . wait 5 days and do another curve and reevaluate

Since you dog has been on 70 % NPH insulin you maybe able to move the process a bit faster as the body should be use to it

Not complicated but there are no guarantees as with anything with this disease

the things you can do is stick with the 16 or 17 units of 70/30 and say we are good with the regulation and wont change anything . the other thing is to find a food or snack that can work with the early drop which is the fast acting and if you can slow that down it may flatten out the curve and make it more stable but like i said it can be challenging finding a diet or food that can do that . It was a struggle for jesse as i tried all kinds of things . the last thing would be to change insulin

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

So I broke down and took Lucy to an internist. They said that the 70/30 just isn’t lasting long enough for her and that NPH would be the same. It’s clearly only lasting 8-9 hrs. They gave me a script for Levemir and a pretty detailed dosing chart based on her glucose reading before eating. They also recommended gradually switching her food to Nutrisca chicken (or turkey, lamb etc) with chickpea.
I’m feeling good about everything but the cost of that Levemir. A bottle is $334 at my local Walmart. The vet said that I don’t have to replace it every month though and it should last me abt 3 months. She just wants me to replace when it starts to get really low. Anyone have experience with Levemir? I searched and it just doesn’t come up much.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

there are some members that have used it . The big thing with levemir its 4 times more potent than NPH so if you were giving 4 units of NPH the equivalent of levemir would be one unit .

So you have to be really careful dosing and being exact .

I have clear insulin's Novolog and r that are 6 months old and still work as they did on day one . For me as long as it stays clear I am ok with it but we dont use it everyday . Levemir is also a clear insulin i believe and does not have suspension built into it . If that is true i would be comfortable going at least 90 days . You can test and if you see a shift in regulation you dont like it maybe time for a new vial

Levemir has worked better in dogs that were on larger doses of NPH . When you get down to smaller doses it becomes difficult to fine tune

[Lolo]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

She’s on 17u 70/30. The chart they gave me for her Levemir doses range from 2.5-4 units depending on her reading.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dog diagnosed 1/30... Need advice/help!

So if you treated your dose as is being 17 units a possible equivalent dose of levemir would be about 4 units . Not sure if i would be comfortable with matching doses to start and i would probably go lower so not to start off giving to much as that really affects regulation and safety