uncontrolled diabetic dog

[Shelly]

I am very frustrated right now. Here's my story. On June 3rd my beagle dog (8 yesrs old) was diagnosed as being diabetic. They started her on 5 units every 12 hours on Humlin N, and gave me WD canned dogfood. Every two weeks we went back and they increased her dosage. Last week we were at 25 units. In july she quit eating the canned so we sent with the dry. Two weeks ago she quit eating that. So we called the vet and they said get her senior dogfood. She ate that for two days, and now she won't eat. Last Wednesday they switched her insulin to Lantis and told me to give her 5 units. I started on Sat. evening. Sunday fine, Monday she wouldn't eat finally coaxed her into eating. Yesterday morning wouldn't eat, and didn't give her a shot. Last night I gave her moist and meaty and she ate that. Did a urine test strip and she glucose was 2000 and Ketone's 15. So i increased the dose to 10. This morning fed her the samething and gave her 12 units. Her urine test strip this morning glucose 2000, ketone negative. Called the vet this moring to see if I could switch back to old insulin, and she is very upset with me for increasing insulin that much. I don't know what to do at this point. I can't afford to keep taking her to the vet every other day. And the lantis that I just bought was $125.00 vs the humlin at 50.00. 'm about ready to give up. Any suggestions.

[nfjchester]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

i really wish i had some answers for you - i am overwhemled and very depressed over this diabetes stuff . just wanted to let you know your not alone .

[MaryLea]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Welcome to the board. You will likely find some excellent information and support here--we did!

Please give the weight of your pet. Our dog was started at 4u, 2x day when she weighed 16 lbs.

Although I am not an expert on dog diabetes, there are at least three people here who are: an administrator and two moderators. One or more of them will probably respond within a few hours. They were always helpful to us.

We'll be watching your thread and may make some posts to encourage you. As the other person said, you are not alone. We've all been where you are in one way or another.

Whatever else you do, don't give up. You have come to the right place for help and support.

[Shelly]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I think she weighs close to 40 lbs. She had lost 5 lbs when she was diagnosed but has since gained it back.

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Hi Shelley,

Would you be willing to test her blood sugar at home?

It is much less expensive than going to the vet for tests and also allows you to test more frequently to see how things are going.

At 40 pounds, 25 units of NPH is higher than average but not excessive unless her blood sugar was raging high despite that amount.

How was her blood sugar on 25 units of NPH?

What was she eating before she was diagnosed with diabetes?

I'm glad the ketones are gone and that you were monitoring for those. The fact that she had ketones could certainly have affected her appetitite...

There's no reason you can't switch back to the Humulin N. And you can buy it at Walmart for half of what you paying - it's $24.88 there - ask for Relion N. It's the same insulin, just packaged as a house brand for Walmart.

All your other supplies will be less expensiver there too - syringes, urine testing strips, and blood glucose testing meters and strips.

The question I would have it whether she's doing better on Lantis than she is on NPH. Right now she's on half as much.

The best way to sort this all out would be for you to learn to test blood glucose at home. You often can get a meter free or nearly free. With a beagle, I would suggest the OneTouch Ultra or maybe a Freestyle meter. There is also the Relion meters at Walmart. They are cheaper but we haven't determined their accuracy in dogs yet.

I personally think I would spend a bit more for a proven meter in your case as it's a one-time investment that is small over the life of your dog. I used the same meter for 3+ years. The OneTouch Ultra has a really good reputation in reading canine blood, which is a bit different so the meters tend to read the blood sugar somewhat lower than actual.

Here are tutorials for all of the various places you can use to get a blood sample:

www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html

If you can reply to some of my questions, we can talk some more about where to go from here.

Natalie

____

Diagnosed June 3
Beagle 40 lbs, 8 yesrs old
Humulin N started at 5 units every 12 hours on Humlin N
Diet changed to WD
Every two weeks we went back and they increased her dosage.
Last week at 25 units.
In july quit eating canned, went with dry.
Two weeks ago she quit eating that.
Got senior dogfood. She ate that for two days, and now she won't eat.
Switched to Lantis on Saturday 5 units
Monday she wouldn't eat until coaxed
Yesterday morning wouldn't eat, didn't give her a shot.
Last night she ate moist and meaty.
Did a urine test strip and she glucose was 2000 and Ketone's 15. So i increased the dose to 10.
This morning fed her the same and 12 units Lantus.
Her urine test strip this morning glucose 2000, ketone negative.
Called the vet this moring to see if I could switch back to old insulin, and she is very upset with me for increasing insulin that much. I don't know what to do at this point.

[Patty]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Shelly,
Why did the vet want to switch to Lantus?
Patty

[CarolW]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Hi Shelly,

I won't usually have a lot of detail to offer, but want to let you know that the support you'll get here - including the information - is the best I've seen on a canine diabetes forum of any sort.

I'll be watching for your replies to Natalie's and other questions. I too am curious about why the vet wanted your dog switched to Lantus, which isn't known to be successful with canines - it's good for felines.

I guess it varies. But typically, as I understand it, Lantus is given only once, not twice, in 24 hours.

Yet I have a feeling if you can go back to the Humulin -N, or its Walmart equivalent, Reilon-N, AND you can learn to test your dog's glucose levels (blood sugar) yourself (most everybody can learn, as most dogs tolerate this testing rather well), AND you report closely here to the forum, you should be able to see improvements before too long.

With Kumbi, I reported all my test results to my vet, and we consulted about dose changes. Your vet might or might not appreciate you doing the testing - vets vary in their attitudes about it, but some have been brought around to like it, as it tends to give more accurate results then we can get when the dog is tested in the clinic and has to stay around all day, usually, in a cage. This can be quite upsetting to the dog.

With diabetes, the best situation is when the vet and the human client work as a team, so if you start testing glucose levels at home, and report the results to your vet, you have the basis for doing that.

I used the OneTouch Ultra and the OneTouch Ultra2 meters on Kumbi. Kumbi died this past 8 June, but not of diabetes; it was cancer. I liked the accuracy and reliability of these meters.

(The Ultra2 is the successor to the Ultra.)

Wishing you lots and lots of luck, and now, as you came here, you have lots of hands holding yours, and lots of hugs from human members, and licks and wags from canine members.

A big, fat welcome to you!

Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:26:12 (PST)

[Shelly]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

My dogs blood sugar was all over the place, but mostly high. It was never below 300 usually off the charts they would tell me, that's why they kept increasing the dosage. And that's also why they switched her to the Lantis.Before she was diagnosed I would free feed my dogs (I have two) beneful weight control. But they were also eating table scaps every night. Occassionally I would give them a hamburger if I did fast food drive thrus for dinner. I would also say that she's not doing any better on the Lantis, but the vet told me yesterday that it was a much stronger insulin. As I said she was very upset with me that I increased her dosage to 10. But I think that 5 is just not enough. But I bought some different food last night, beef flavored. She ate about 1/2 of it and I gave her 6 units this morning. She was a little bit more lively last night when I went home, so that was a plus.

[eileen]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Shelly,

In order for any sort of glucose control to be achieved everything must remain consistant, from the exact same food eaten at every meal as well as the insulin dose to remain the same for a long enough period of time to see how it is affecting the dog.

Please seriously consider learning how to home blood test. I really think that being able to monitor the glucose will be a tremendous help in getting a handle on this.

It would appear that things need to be be better scheduled with consistancy.

Lantus used by itself in a dog is not a common practice, this has me concerned especially where there is no sort of home monitoring going on.

NPH works very well for most of our dogs. I think you should consider going back to using NPH with keeping a consistant diet along with monitoring by blood.

The food that is fed needs to be carefully selected so to match the specific insulin.

Things can get straightened out, it just takes very careful feeding, dosing and monitoring.

[CraigM]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Shelly,
Just wanted to say hello and tell you about Annie's meals.

As already mentioned, it's important to keep the meals as consistant as possible. With Annie, I think I can see a difference in her blood sugar (BG) with a VERY slight increase / decrease in her food, or brand of food. I use a kitchen food scale to ensure she gets as close to the same amount of food for each of her two meals. Annie almost never gets a between meal snack because that would cause her BG to rise. The few times she gets a snack, it would be something like a piece of broccoli, cauliflower, or a VERY, VERY small piece of chicken or turkey (size of my thumb nail). I can't remember the last time she had the chicken / turkey, it was that long ago. Some dogs that are exercised might need a snack to prevent the BG from going low, but without home testing, you wouldn't know if your dog could use a snack or how much of a snack. Annie's BG never seemed to react to our 15 -20 minute walks.

Not getting a snack WAS a big problem at the start, but after a week it was no longer expected.

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

It would be helpful to get a copy of the curves the vet did and post the results of them here - or email or fax them to me if you'd rather - so we can see exactly what was happening with her blood sugar as the dosage was increased.

Also any blood panels they did at diagnosis or since.

If the blood sugar just keeps rising despite increase after increase after increase in the dose, Cushing's disease is one thing to consider. Has the vet ever mentioned it?

I know right now you're just trying to get her to eat something. Beneful definitely wouldn't be my first choice but there are some good foods out there that you could try and that she might like.

A lot of folks here are using Blue Buffalo weight control with great success. You can buy it at Petco. Maybe buy a can and see what she thinks of it.

If you started to home test, we could evaluate her response to a stable diet - assuming you can find something pretty good for her diabetes that she will eat consistently, at least for a while - and whichever insulin you prefer to use. We can help you sort out what the curves mean - both ones done previously and any that you might do in the future if you learn to test at home.

Hang in there - and don't be shy about detail or feel like you have to keep your posts short... as you can see, I never keep mine short! The more you can tell us the better and having those lab and curve results would help a great deal.

My email is k9diabetes@gmail.com.

Natalie

[Shelly]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

When she was diagnosed tey told me to switch her food to the WD. She started with the can, quit eating that then went to dry, no all of a sudden she quit eating that. So I bought some other senior dog food she ate that for two days, stopped that, so I thought maybe she was just tired of the chicken flavor and bought beef flavored last night. She ate some of it this morning but not all. I do feed her at the same time each day. 5:40 am and then again at 4:45pm. I give her four handfuls in the morning and my daughter does 3 handfuls in the evening. Maybe I am just feeding her too much at one time.

[Shelly]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I think the vet is upset with me right now. But I will try to get her blood readings and post them.

[CarolW]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I think if your vet is upset with you (you mentioned she was angry that you gave much more Lantus than she said to) - she needs to explain WHY she is upset - that is, how things work. You need to know. If your vet can't explain, you might search out a ver who CAN explain.

Unless your vet explains things to help you manage the diabetes, you'll generally have difficulty. Except, of course, you can usually get the information you need from this forum.

All the same, I notice a LOT of forum members have changed vets, some, even several times. It's not common for vets to be specifially educated in canine diabetes - some are, some are not. Some have particular interest in canine diabetes, and you might look around and see if there's one of those in your area.

Diabetes is a condition that is most easily managed when the vet and the client work as a team.

Fri, 10 Dec 2010 12:01:29 (PST)

[Patty]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I think it's important to understand how Lantus works as well. Lantus is typically used as a basal insulin and has a much flatter profile than NPH. It can be hard to pair a food with quite a bit of carb content to Lantus because it doesn't have the peaking action that NPH has in order to counteract a spike in blood sugar from meals.

I know of 5 dogs that have used Lantus successfully and 3 of those needed to use a fast acting insulin in addition to Lantus to prevent meal spikes.

Here's a picture of the action profiles

http://www.lantus.com/hcp/comparison.aspx

Every dog responds different. So I don't want to say Lantus won't work. But I think it's good to know the differences in the two insulins to know how they may work with a particular diet.

You might look into the Blue Buffalo canned Natalie suggested. There are many using it with good success here. I'll let them chime in on what type they use as I don't believe the weight control comes in canned.

I too am curious to know how her curves were on NPH. That may help shed some light on things.

I know feeding is a struggle. Hang in there! I'd also suggest measuring with a measuring cup, or better a scale, what you feed/how much she eats. I think it would help with knowing how much insulin she can get in the future.

Patty