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  • #16
    Re: Coolidge...

    Hi Becky,

    I gotta tell you....reading Coolidge's history is just scary. You seem to have had quite a farce of vets going on here, contradicting each other, giving poor advise, failing to communicate with you, not seeing Coolidge as an individual... How sad. You and Coolidge have payed for it, too, in more than one way. If it were me, and were possible, I would be looking for some fresh eyes to look at her. Give all her signs, changes, etc but with no mention of a previous diagnosis or testing. It seems sometimes docs, both human and animal, get locked onto an idea and develop tunnel vision. I think you are on the mark to question her initial diagnosis!

    Since we don't have all the info from the other site, can you refresh my memory on how long it's been since she was tested for hypothyroidism and diabetes (DM and DI)? The signs you mention can indicate Cushing's but they are also connected with some other conditions such as those above. The weight loss is not usually seen with Cushing's, more often seen with diabetes, tho some cush pups do present with this sign. How long has it been since she had what Dr C calls a SuperChem - a full blood workup? You said "Her adrenal glands (at least as of the middle of January) were of normal size"; I am understanding by this that she had another U/S since the one listed 9/08 and that the adrenals had returned to normal size. Is this correct? If so, it makes sense to me that, with all she had going on when first diagnosed with the iffy LDDS, the adrenals could have been larger due to the extra work they were having to do in dealing with the physiological stress Coolidge was under at the time. (But that is my logic only, no medical backing. ) The IMS who wrote the adrenals were "bilaterally enlarged" in 9/08 sounds like the one Squirt first saw who didn't think it necessary to let anyone know she had a tumor on her spleen. Got their heads somewhere else rather than on our babies or they just don't care!

    Have you had your water checked? Having lived in a house where the water supply was contaminated, take some advice if you decide to do that...get samples from someplace like the outside faucet, someplace drinking pipe isn't used and no filtering process should be going on. There may be no difference between a sample from a source like that and the kitchen faucet but, then again, there could be. There was for me. BUT, like Alison said, the humans were the ones sick, not the dogs. So if you and your family don't have any issues then the water may not be the problem. I don't know enough about bacterias to know if some may target animals and not humans from the same source.

    Keep your chin up, Becky. You are doing a great job in trying to find out what is wrong with Coolidge. Your perseverance not only in getting to a correct diagnosis but in trying to learn all you can, is admirable.

    Hugs,
    Leslie and the girls
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence
    and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." Anne, a Corgi mom

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    • #17
      Re: Coolidge...

      Hi Becky,

      What a great mix, german shepherd and newfie! I'm sure she is one heck of a dog.

      As I understand it, you had two ultrasounds, one in November and another at UW in January. Both said the adrenal glands were pretty much normal in size. That should rule out an adrenal tumor. I think the reason the emergency vet thought she had an adrenal tumor was because of the size of her Lt. adrenal gland (4.57 cm x 1.17 cm) on her November ultrasound. Unfortunately, this can be tricky stuff.

      If it was me, I'd call the lab at U.T. and explain things to them (hopefully, in an organized fashion ) and ask what test they recommend. I would think that they might be able to tell more from the combination LDDS/ACTH with the adrenal panel than just the ACTH with the adrenal panel. Of course, I'm not sure but the U.T. people could tell you. I can tell you this...the written results we got after the combination test were very complicated. I contacted Dr. Oliver myself and he was great and told me that based on the test results, he thought Shi had an adrenal tumor.

      I'm sorry you are having such a tough time figuring out exactly what is ailing Coolidge. I went through a similar scenario for two months and it consumed my life, all the while Shi was getting worse and worse. I hope you can find the right veterinary professional to help you. I felt like a couple of the vets I took Shiloh to just looked at me as some surfer dude off the street with an older, sick dog who wasn't going to live very long anyway. Finally, my primary gp vet came through. But, I seriously stepped on some toes and I had to follow up on things myself to get all of the information.

      Hang in there Becky, hang real tough and do what you gotta do to take care of Coolidge. I'm confident it is something treatable and she can be a happy, healthy girl for many years to come. From my experience, working with the lab at U.T. and Dr. Oliver is a big cut above.

      Ken

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Coolidge...

        I've just put up one of the threads regarding "Atypical Cushing's" - it includes links info on the the testing (near the bottom):

        http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845

        Alison

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        • #19
          Re: Coolidge...

          Help. Coolidge is supposed to be fasted before the test. Does this mean water as well? She can't go long without it! Answer needed, as the fast goes into effect shortly.

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          • #20
            Re: Coolidge...

            Water is fine.

            Debbie

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            • #21
              Re: Coolidge...

              I know I sound like a nut case. Just want to make certain I have everything in order so there is no chance for skewing the tests.

              I just remembered that the last ACTH test done at the end of Dec required fasting as well. (I'm pleading senior moment.) (None of the other ACTH tests were done with fasting.)

              I just want an answer. I'm hoping this test will explain everything. The most expensive part of this is the shipping. Go figure.

              I will keep everyone informed of the results of the tests.

              Thank you everyone! I'd be lost without this board.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Coolidge...

                Hi Becky,
                Wow, what an epic you and Coolidge have been thru. I have nothing to add except good thoughts and prayers that you and Coolidge finally get a proper diagnosis and poor Coolidge gets a well deserved break.

                Were all keeping our fingers and paws crossed.

                John (Roxee's Dad)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Coolidge...

                  Hi Becky,

                  You are doing just fine! Nut cases are always welcomed as I need all the company I can get!

                  I am sure UTK will be able to help Coolidge get the right diagnosis if this is Cushing's. That is one fine bunch of folks at UTK! Especially Dr O and his staff.

                  Squirt has had to fast for one of her ACTHs but not the others. I'm not sure what the difference is as to why they fast sometimes and not others. Seems like others have experienced this as well.

                  Like Ken said, hang real tough! We are hanging with you and are here anytime you need us.

                  Hugs,
                  Leslie and the girls
                  "May you know that absence is full of tender presence
                  and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." Anne, a Corgi mom

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Coolidge...

                    Well, it's been a week since they sent the samples to UT. I called my vet out of concern that no results have been forthcoming.

                    They called UT and they said they were "in the works". I'm glad I had this done, but I now know that they aren't the people I'd send any more samples to after her next loading phase. With Coolidge's low counts last time, we wouldn't have the luxury of waiting a week to put her on steroids.

                    Hopefully will hear back from them tomorrow or Monday. This waiting sorta, well, sucks - for both Coolidge and I. She's getting slower and her head hangs low. Would be nice to see her back at her perky self.

                    Thanks for all your support!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Coolidge...

                      I thought one of us had mentioned that it take 10-14 days to get UTK panel results back. How they handle their testing is they go through their freezers every Monday, collect up all sample received from the previous week, & start running panels on Monday. You are exactly right, this is why you don't send your routine stims to UTK. Routine stims need to be done by one of your regular vets so you get them back in a timely manner for med monitoring purposes. I'm contemplating having a repeat panel run on Harley at his next stim in July, but I will clearly indicate to my vet the stim is to be done locally, the remainder of the panel is to go to UTK. I also intend to make sure that UTK does not run a cortisol as I'm not going to pay twice for the same test.

                      Debbie

                      PS-Being a lab tech, I can understand why UTK has to batch their panels in this manner. I'm sure that the necessary supplies/reagents to do this testing are hideously expensive, so the more tests they run at once, the less the expense, & the less you have to pay as the owner. I shudder to think what a panel would cost, if they were being run one at at time.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Coolidge...

                        The results are in. Just got a call from my vet. Cortisol levels were normal before and after.

                        However, the Hydroxyprogesterone and Progesteronewere elevated. My vet spoke with Dr. Oliver, who stated that Coolidge does in fact have ATYPICAL CUSHINGS.

                        He recommended a treatment of Flaxseed and if that didn't work, melatonin.

                        Now to research the atypical cushings.

                        I will post test results after I receive them. Thanks again for all your help!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Coolidge...

                          A couple of things. FSO & melatonin are usually used together. I can think of no one in this group who has an Atypical pup that is not using both of them, & that includes my Harley. This is per the treatment recommendation sheet from UTK. There should be one of these recommendation sheets that came with Coolidge's results. It would be a good idea if you could get a copy.

                          When it comes to the FSO, most of us are using some type of product that is purified lignans. Lignans are the active ingredient that works. The purified lignans allow you to make sure that you are giving a consistent, standardized dose, where the FSO is hit & miss about dosing. Also, a lot of Cushpups have liver issues, & adding the extra oil to their diet is not ideal. You might take a look a vitacost.com as I know they have a purified lignan. Several members are also using crushed flaxhulls from flaxhulls.com, but I'm not sure about the dosing on this product.

                          Debbie

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                          • #28
                            Re: Coolidge...

                            Hi Becky,

                            I am so glad that you finally have a correct diagnosis. YAY!!!! Sorry for getting excited about your baby having Atypical Cushing's but I am pretty jazzed that it looks like he never had typical cushing's. That would certainly explain the apparent sensitivity to Lysodren. Having said that, I want to make it perfectly clear that not all dogs with normal cortisol are sensitive to the drug. The dogs involved in the original studies of the drug (then called o.p.-ddd) in the early 1940's were very healthy with normal adrenal activity. Many proved to be resistant to o.p.-ddd as they received very large doses of the drug for up to a year with no ill effects.

                            Please make sure that your vet gives you a copy of the treatment recommendations sheet that usually is attached to the panel results. I don't recall any other member advising that recommended treatment was solely flaxseed. Most of us atypical parents were given appropriate dosing for both melatonin and flaxseed oil with lignans. Since fso has a negligible amount of lignans, a lot of us have opted to leave the fso behind and go with purified lignans or the pressed flax hull lignans. Website links for the two latter products can be found on the utk website.

                            We'll be waiting to see the actual results of the panel and will be anxious to see how Coolidge responds to his new treatment. Just keep in mind that, often times, treatment with melotonin and/or lignans can take up to 3 to 4 months to see improvements so patience really is a virtue with atypical cushing's.

                            Glynda

                            P.S. I see that Debbie posted way ahead of me so sorry for the duplication. I'm at work and it really ticks me off when work gets in the way of my posts.
                            Last edited by Lulusmom; 05-11-2009, 03:21 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Coolidge...

                              Atypical...That's great news!

                              Did you get a copy of the actual results? I agree with Debbie - just using one of the two doesn't make sense - get the actual treatment recommendations that UTK provided. They will list treatment option numbers and those numbers correspond to this list (on their website):

                              http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/en...hing's.pdf

                              -Susy

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Coolidge...

                                Well, my vet is snail mailing the results to me. I guess I could call and have them faxed to me.

                                She was pretty specific about what Dr. Oliver said. He wanted to start on the Flaxseed (powdered, not oil) and if that didn't cut back on Coolidges problems, to go to the Melatonin. He said that the last item to try was the Trilostane and only at maintenance doses (no loading). He agreed with the UW Vet school that Coolidge was hypersensitive to the lysodren and should be switched in that event.

                                However, I need your assistance in understanding Atypical Cushings. All I know is that instead of having excess cortisol (steroids) which left unchecked could lead to liver/kidney/heart problems; she has excess sex hormones. The first thing I thought of was, well, what kind of problem is that? But obviously there must be some ill effect from that as well. Can anyone share their insight with me?

                                The following link was interesting, but didn't tell me what I needed to know, at least in lay terms.


                                http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm.../detail/485128
                                Last edited by Coolidge; 05-11-2009, 03:01 PM. Reason: added link...

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