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Sweet Dutch has passed December 6, 2015

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  • Sweet Dutch has passed December 6, 2015

    Hello this is my first post. My dog is Dutch and he is a Rottweiler. He is 8 years old and was diagnosed with diabetes in October 2011. He weighs about 115lbs right now and is on 30 units of insulin every morning and everynight at 7.
    After his 7th birthday he didn’t have the energy he used to and slowly got more depressed during the day hiding away in his favorite sleeping spot. Eventually he started getting really worn out fairly quickly when we would go outside to run and play, his appetite wasn’t the greatest sometimes he would even walk away from his food, and was getting a pot belly. He really started to show his old age and even started growing grey chin hairs and always had to go out in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. He spent I would say about 80 percent of his time sleeping during that period. He had so little energy that when we would walk around the room he would not move his head and only move his eyes which had become a characteristic of him. I have had many rotties in the past and they all only lived to be about 8 or 9 years old before they went down fast from problems.
    Dutch went to his vet appointment in October 2011 and looked good/got all his shots but I still felt something was very wrong with him. About 2 weeks after that he started getting really sick and never would get out of his bed except for food/snacks/bathroom or if he had the energy to get up and say hi when someone got home, but during that 2 weeks he didn’t even want to get out of bed for that, I would walk in the room and he would open his eyes and wag his tail fast. He would stare me at me for hours when he was awake. He started losing his appetite, vomiting, drinking a lot of water and urinating very frequently. He also was losing all his muscle mass on his body. He urinated in the house one night which he never does (normally he will jump on my bed and wimper in my face until I wake up) and he had to go so frequently that I started to keep him outside with his blanket. (We have a large porch gates.) He would lay in his dog house all night awake and his staring me in the eyes non-stop was worrying me. His legs began trembling all the time and one day they were like spaghetti noodles when I was walking him. When I was walking him he had a grand mal seizure that lasted probably 3-5 minutes of him kicking and when he came to he was very out of it, couldn’t walk, and his tounge was hanging out the side of mouth for another 10 minutes or so. I had to hold him still because he kept trying to take off running but wouldn’t of been able to. Im always home, have a small house and the dogs are always with me so this was the first time that that had happened to that extreme.
    We took him to the emergency vet to see what the outcome was and his blood sugar was somewhere above 550 mg and his keytones were really high. They gave him fluids and we took him home for the night and started treating him the next morning. Everything was great after several vet trips, his health was coming back, and we go for long walks every couple days for exercise trying to gain back muscle which hasn’t really actually been working but he still loves it. He is just getting a fat belly. He also has a full grey chin now since his 7th birthday. Sometimes he has to go to the bathroom really bad in the morning, and sometimes he dosen’t. His urine is always clear in the morning and after his shot sometimes it gets a lot darker. His nose drips when he sleeps. He eats about 2 cups every morning and afternoon at 6:30 and gets his shot at 7:00.

    Everyonce in a while he dosen't look so good but then is ok after a couple days. He started acting weird again the other day and staring me in the eyes for long periods of time. He started having to go to the bathroom really bad in the mornings/still drinking a lot of water and sleeping. In the afternoon he was really worn out looking. So I only take him for long walks when he looks ok. But about a week ago he didn’t look good one day and started acting weird, about 1 o’clock at night he woke me up making a racket dragging his legs, running into things, and falling down making a loud slam. My other rottie was running around also so I didn’t know what was going on. I got up and Dutch was standing in the kitchen and he turned and looked at me but when he went to walk towards me he stumbled and his back legs were kicking and trembling. I held him still for a minute and he would quickly dart his head like he seen something and watch. After he seemed fine I took him outside but he didn’t have to go that much, and he kept darting his head and listening like he was seeing things. Then he started locking up, shaking, and couldn’t walk right. So I rubbed his side for a few minutes and talked to him but he couldn’t walk and it took a really long time to get him back inside and after he layed down for a little while he was ok. We Took him back the next day to the vet, they wanted to do a Fructosimine test and full blood work, but we just had the fructosimine test done and will get the bloodwork done probably this weekend. They said his Fructosimine test was good. I think it was around 400-450. So for a couple days at around 1 o’clock in the afternoon and at night he was having this problem, that’s halfway in-between insulin shots. So I started giving him a small snack at this time just incase his blood sugar was falling to low. He also was acting like he was starving and was acting strange and searching for food outside which he dosent really do even after meals. I FINALLY got a glucose meter for him on monday, it’s a one touch UltraMini. This week I am monitoring his curves for the first time and when we go to the vet this weekend I will bring it with us and talk to them about it to see whats up and how accurate it is.

    I have been testing him right before his meal and then every couple hours after that until right before his next meal and it’s also pretty much right on with his nap schedule he has going on. Last night his blood sugar was at 212mg right before he ate so I fed him a full bowl of dog food which is 4-cups so that his sugar wouldn’t drop to low at 1 oclock at night again. I tested him again at about 10:30 and it was at 269mg. I decided not to stay up the rest of the night and monitor him and he seemed to feel well.

    This morning right before he ate his blood sugar was at 401mg. At about 1 today it dropped down to 114mg and at 3 it was down to 104 mg and I noticed at about that time he seemed fine but a little droopy. I just tested him before dinner and his blood sugar was back up to 354mg and I fed him around 2 cups of food. Im not sure though about his curve, it seems really big. Im going to keep monitoring him the rest of the night and I have a chart on the computer for it. Im just not sure what to do though if his fructosimine tests are stable?

  • #2
    Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

    Hi Timothy and welcome to you and Dutch!
    I'm so very glad you have a glucometer and are monitoring Dutch's levels! Congrats on home testing.

    It sounds like Dutch may be having some hypoglycemia spells. If he does get too low, you can give a small amount of honey, karo or pancake syrup to bring his blood sugar up quickly. If he's not able to lick it, you can rub it on his gums.

    I do have a few questions if you don't mind...
    - What type of food is Dutch eating? And how much does he normally get to maintain his weight?
    - What type of insulin is he on? If it's Humulin NPH, you can get this at Walmart for around $25, just FYI.
    - Did the vet work up to the 30 units twice a day or was he started on that amount?
    - Has he ever had a blood glucose curve done before (where blood sugar is tested just before food/insulin then every 2 hours after)?

    Again, welcome to you! Anxious to hear more about your dog.
    Patty
    Patty and Ali 13.5yrs 47lbs diagnosed May '08 Ali earned her wings October 27, 2012, 4 months after diagnosis of a meningioma ~ Time is precious ~

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

      Welcome Timothy & Dutch

      You have been through so much with your boy! I'm fairly new, so I'm not adding anything as far as advice, but giving you a warm welcome and you will find lots of support and good advice from those that have been here for some time!

      Hang in there!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

        i agree with patty it sounds like a low blood sugar event

        if you are testing have you identified the time blood sugar is at its lowest or a full curve as patty suggested which should identify that

        my jesse has seizures outside of diabetes she has epilepsy

        so you definitely want to test around or before 1:00 or if you see the onset of these symptoms maybe try to get a test if possible to identify if it is low blood sugar but be careful dogs can really bite down during seizures

        my jesse will rise quite substantially after a seizure so it maybe difficult to identify but you have to rule out the possibility of low blood sugar
        Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
        Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

          welcome to you two.

          has your vet ever ran any curves when the bg is tested every 2 hours from morning fasting for the next 12 hours or more? that's really the only accurate way you can raise a dose. you need to base your dose on the lowest number and adjust from there. high blood sugar can be tolerated by dogs better than humans but, low blood sugar can kill. a fructosamine test only gives an average of what the bg has been over an extended amount of time. as others here and my vet has said, you really shoulddn't adjust dosing with fructosamine tests alone. dutch could very well have been jumping higher after rebounding from the low numbers or even those large drops you just witnessed. it is called somogyi, i couldn't post the link but the info is on this site.

          you can run curves at home and show them to your vet.

          good luck!
          I'm Debbie and Nibbles is a 16yo beagle mix ~ Diagnosed in Feb. 2011 with Diabetes and Cushings ~ Currently at 11 units Humulin N ~ Eating Wellness canned food.

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          • #6
            Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

            Welcome!! I agree that it sounds like a hypo event. His body is definitely not liking those big drops in BG.

            As for the fructosimine tests, those are NOT a reliable source to monitor his BG. They ONLY show an average of what his numbers were over a period of time and they have no way of indicating just how low he actually goes. Since you are now testing at home ( GOOD JOB!!) you really don't need to spend the money at the vet for any more fructosimine tests. You will have much more, and reliable results from the home testing

            Looking forward to more info on Dutch!!

            Sandy

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            • #7
              Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

              Originally posted by Patty View Post
              - What type of food is Dutch eating? And how much does he normally get to maintain his weight?
              - What type of insulin is he on?
              - Did the vet work up to the 30 units twice a day or was he started on that amount?
              - Has he ever had a blood glucose curve done before (where blood sugar is tested just before food/insulin then every 2 hours after)?
              He normally eats 2-cups of Purina One Smart Blend Healthy Weight Formula. But the last few times ive changed it up a couple times and noted it.
              He is on 30U of Humulin N every 12 hours.
              I remember he started on a small amount twice a day, and everytime we went to the vet they would increase it by 2 units untill finally he was at 30U and his Glucose test came out ok.
              This is the first time that I am testing him throughout the day. When we were first taking him to the vet we were checking his glucose at what was assumed to be his lowest point in the day & then after a few weeks he had a fructosimine test done & that turned out ok. He just had a fructosimine test done last week that was ok too. Im in the process of creating a log of his glucose.


              Originally posted by jesse girl View Post
              have you identified the time blood sugar is at its lowest or a full curve

              This morning it was high at 401mg when he woke up and before he ate.
              His lowest point was from from 1:00 to 3:30 today and his glucose was 114mg then 104mg.

              Before he ate at 6:30 his glucose had risen to 354. And tonight at 9:30 it was up to 381mg.

              I have not gotten the chance yet find out what his lowest point is during the nighttime.
              Last edited by Timothy; 04-10-2012, 07:26 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                I'm glad you're keeping a log. That's a huge benefit!
                I would also be sure you're measuring or weighing his food for consistency each time. For some dogs even several pieces of kibble can make a difference.

                You mentioned some walks. Is there a certain time of the day you usually go? Timing can be really important for some dogs. If insulin is quite active, you can get a large drop in blood sugar. Or, if its fading, a large rise can occur. Now that you're home testing, you'll be able to see how exercise effects him.

                Consistency really is key with most dogs. The more consistent you are with food, shot times, exercise, etc, the easier it can be to regulate.

                It sounds like Dutch has a large swing in blood sugar from high to low point. If you are able to complete a curve on him, we'd love to see his numbers and offer help if we can. I would say if he shows signs of going too low again, I would reduce his insulin a unit and see if that helps.

                Take care,
                Patty
                Patty and Ali 13.5yrs 47lbs diagnosed May '08 Ali earned her wings October 27, 2012, 4 months after diagnosis of a meningioma ~ Time is precious ~

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                  I'm SO glad you have gotten a meter and started testing him at home.

                  Given the concerns that he's on a little bit too much insulin, I would reduce his dose 1 unit morning and evening and see what happens with his blood sugar and how he behaves.

                  Also very important not to walk him when his blood sugar is falling and approaching a low level as exercise often drops the blood sugar dramatically.

                  And then if he is walked before his blood sugar hits the low point, it would be important to monitor it after his walk to make sure it hasn't dropped sharply and then goes lower still.

                  I'm not sure why but Rottweilers historically have tended to be somewhat inconsistent blood sugar-wise.... maybe because they are so muscular, not sure. As time goes on with your testing, it will be interesting to see what you get from him in terms of consistency.

                  You may find that his blood sugar would be "flatter" - less difference between the highest and lowest point - if he got just a little bit less insulin.

                  Natalie

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                  • #10
                    Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                    Originally posted by Timothy View Post

                    This morning it was high at 401mg when he woke up and before he ate.
                    His lowest point was from from 1:00 to 3:30 today and his glucose was 114mg then 104mg.

                    Before he ate at 6:30 his glucose had risen to 354. And tonight at 9:30 it was up to 381mg.

                    I have not gotten the chance yet find out what his lowest point is during the nighttime.
                    I think there are some serious concerns here

                    you have seen possible multiple low blood sugar events possibly in the process of a seizure occurring

                    it is simple math fasting is 401 the low was 104 that is about a 300 point drop from the high say if fasting is 300 blood sugar would be 0 or even 350 and that maybe at a 50 range very close to low blood sugar and that doesnt guarantee that the drop maybe larger on other days

                    you are also seeing that classic bounce back up from the body trying to protect itself with the bodies reserves of blood sugar to preserve life

                    the dose does need to be reduced or that drop needs to be slowed down by at least half
                    Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
                    Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                      Thanks to everyone for the warm welcomes and fast responses here.

                      Originally posted by Patty View Post
                      Is there a certain time of the day you usually go?
                      No, there's not actually, I have always taken him on mountainous hikes where we live (probably around 30 minutes). But since his diagnosis ive only been doing it when I can tell hes feeling good, and not in consecutive days. Theres been days where he would run or trot at a fast pace the whole time having fun, but there's also been days where he would get tired on the way back or else walk really slow.

                      Im going to keep track of his daily curves throughout the week and when I can get things more consistent I can check his glucose curve on a day when we go on a hike and see how it affects him. That way I can try and find a best time for that.

                      Other then that his bathroom times and sleep schedules are pretty much consistent he lets me know when he has to go.

                      Originally posted by jesse girl View Post
                      the dose does need to be reduced or that drop needs to be slowed down by at least half
                      Does it have to be a decrease in his insulin? or can there be an increase in his food intake?
                      Last edited by Timothy; 04-10-2012, 09:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                        Welcome Timothy and Dutch
                        I am very new here myself so I'll leave the advice to the pros. But - I will say that you have come to the right place. These folks are knowledgeable and REALLY CARE - Hope you get your boy back on track soon!
                        FIGHTING FOR HARLEY...Susan & Harley- Yellow Lab born 2/21/2001 ~ dx 3/27/2012 ~ started with 11 units 2x day now at 21units Humulin N 2x day - weight 100

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                          First off welcome timothy and dutch......You've definitely found the right place to help. The folks here are so very knowledgeable and willing to help. I'm no expert, but I think it is important for each of us to share our stories so everyone can learn and as you know each dog being different gives you a wide variety of techniques to manage diabetes.

                          I too have a giant breed dog. Be aware that curves can and may change. For us it was a bowl style curve for over 2.5 months after DX. Then a mountain. Then a bowl ect........so I always check him 2 hours after his meal and shot because that will tell me what type of curve he has that day. If the number goes up it's a mountain, down and it's a bowl. Yesterday he ran a few higher numbers in the late afternoon which signaled me that a change may be in the works. Sure enough, this morning his fasting # was 171 and 2 hours after meal and shot it was 141. He has been on a mountain for the last 2 weeks and today a bowl.

                          My guy also gets big drops from walks and exercise so I do a pre-walk and post walk test over several days. I've plotted out a "short" walk (10 min. or so to take care of business) and a long walk of about a mile (20 minutes to really burn some sugar. Drops range from a low of about 30 points to a high of over 100 points. His walks ALWAYS drop his BG. Over 5 months he has never gone up after a walk so that is good to know.

                          I too keep a log which is extremely helpful in looking for patterns. It has spaces for 6 tests creating a curve. What time he eats, what time the shot is and how much insulin, what time each walk is and how long with an approx. distance. I use walks like many here use a fast acting insulin like "R". I call his walks insulin "W".

                          Regulation became easier for me (although we're still regulating) once I got a routine down. I measure all his food, give him the same snacks each day, walks at approximately the same time depending on what type of curve he throws me.

                          Home testing is the key to all of this and it is GREAT that you are doing that. I test spirit on the callus elbow and he doesn't even feel it. Once the beep of the meter goes off he begins to drool because he knows a treat will follow.

                          Finally, be patient, this is a crazy disease and one or two days of "strange" numbers doesn't really mean a lot unless it becomes a pattern. Watch for low numbers and when you do change a dose, give it at least 3 days but 5 is better to see what the residual effect of the insulin can do. Through my dose changes there are times when the numbers don't seem to move then all of a sudden on the third day I get a nice change in his curve.

                          We are all here for you and will be following your thread.
                          Jim/Marijane & Spirit, Newfoundland, born Dec 22, 2007, 115lbs. DX Oct. 2011, 18.5 units Humulin 2x per day. Hills WD kibble, Hills WD can made into gravy, boiled chicken. Spirit passed on June 9, 2016 and it had nothing to do with diabetes.....farewell my buddy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                            Hello,
                            I want to cover some things that you may or may not know as I am very concerned about what you are seeing in your dog. My understanding of diabetes he's evolved so much since Ruby's diagnosis and I have a feeling you may be in the beginning of the learning curve and therefore want to be sure some bases are covered. In the beginning I used to also exercise ruby with no understanding of the crucial interplay between diet/insulin/exercise and how the variable of timing can change it.

                            So, if I were in your shoes, knowing what I know now I would:

                            * decrease his insulin to the conservative starting dose of 0.5 units/kg for NPH. A fair number of vets start at 1U/kg and run into problems with that. My dog takes a very small dose and did struggle with being overdosed for a while. You said his test for the insulin dose was tested at the vet's. Do you know if it was a curve that they ran? A curve is a test before food and insulin, called the fasting, and then every 2 hrs. after that until the evening meal. Only this way can you be sure if he isn't dropping too low. Curves preformed at the vet's can be problematic as they are often stressed which tends to raise bgs. Therefore he may have been giving falsely higher numbers than he would run at home without the stress.

                            * Pick a diabetic friendly diet and not stray from it. Many people weigh the food to ensure the amounts are always the same. Many people have good results with the Wellness Core reduced fat. I recently got the courage to change ruby's food (she has another condition that makes that very tricky) and it made a 200-300 point difference in her food rise...huge! It is possible that the insulin dose was fine before the food change and now is too much.

                            * Not exercise him until he is stable. When you perform a bg curve one of the key things it reveals is when the dog has his nadir. That is when the insulin is at it's strongest and therefore the bgs are at their lowest. Each dog's nadir will be different and can sometimes change. Knowing when this is likely to happen for your dog is an incredibly useful tool. Exercising him during the nadir, based on the past incidents could be fatal for him. Exercise will often...but not always, drop the bgs. When a dog has a hypoglycemic event the body has sensed that the bg has dropped to low and sends out reserves to try to restore balance. The fact that his system didn't stop there means it was even more of a crisis and the body wasn't able to prevent the scary symptoms that you saw.

                            Now you might ask if it would be okay to exercise him away from the nadir. I would not recommend it until you had arrived at his ideal dose and then you could monitor him before during and after to see how he reacted to it. Otherwise I think it will cloud the picture and what you need now is clarity.

                            In my earlier days if someone had told me to reduce when I was seeing high numbers I would have been reluctant, but....I think the highs you are seeing put together with his symptoms are strongly indicating rebound and that is where the highs are coming from. To resolve this you would need to reduce and then give the body time to recover, usually 3-5 days. At that point you could wait 3 days at each dose, curve before increasing to be sure of no lows and then increase by either 1/2U or 1U increases.

                            All this info is just to be sure you are well informed as you try to figure it all out. It can be very confusing in the beginning, but I think if you were to do the above you would gain a lot of clarity and be able to establish some baselines for your dog to which you could then have a better base to introduce exercise.

                            I wonder if as someone suggested Rotties as being a bit difficult to stabilize, if they are characteristically sensitive to insulin and often overdosed?? I think I remember the breed also having some other anomaly that makes then a bit more delicate than would otherwise be thought??

                            I always wanted to have a Rottie, but my husband is an attorney and he is worried we would have problems with our homeowners insurance. We just decided not to take the chance as we could never rehome a dog and then might be forced to lose the insurance.

                            I wish you the best. It can be a bit overwhelming at first, but once you start testing and get some data under your belt you will come to know your dog well and be able to navigate the intricacies.

                            Which meter did you get? Some are better then others.

                            Tara
                            Tara in honor of Ruby.
                            She was a courageous Boston Terrier who marched right on through diabetes, megaesophagus, and EPI until 14.
                            Lucky for both of us we found each other. I'd do it all again girly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

                              i do use a snack for jesse at mid morning about 11 am and later at 11 pm something very carby she is a 26 pound beagle so i give her a milkbone and a good squirt of honey on it we use an automatic dog feeder for this

                              it is something you could try he would probably need quite a bit more than my jesse

                              what needs to happen is the drop needs to be interrupted or substantially slowed you maybe be able to add more food but we had little success with that so a targeted snack did but all dogs are different

                              it is very important that this be addressed you are testing that is extremely helpful and it will keep your friend safe

                              full blown low blood sugar events are rare i believe the body does do a good job protecting itself but you cant depend on that all the time
                              Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
                              Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

                              Comment

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