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  • BUDDY

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks for all the excellent information!

    We have a 7 year old 25 lbs miniature schnauzer named Buddy -- just diagnosed a month ago with glucose at 460. We started him on 4 units Novolin N and have slowly raised it to 6 units. We feed 2 cups presription WD in morning and 1 cup in eve with some chicken breast and 96% lean hamburger (boiled) and he is still losing weight:

    Here are the latest curves the past two days:

    11-03-12:
    8am 600 feed and shot
    10:30 127, 152, 171 took three tests from same sample
    1am 252, 269 took two tests from same sample
    3:30 610, 600 took two tests from same sample

    11-04-12
    8am 645
    10:30 159
    3:00 600

    I was thinking too much insulin and a Somadji rebound. However, on 11-03, the glucose was only in the mid 250s by 1pm.

    Also, I posted a curve below that shows results after 2 weeks on 5 units -- not much effect.


    8a.m. 300 walked Buddy for 1/2 hour before the glucose test. Gave shot and food right after glucose test.
    10a.m. 320
    noon 432
    2 pm 330 walked 1/2 hour at 3pm
    4:30 450
    6:00 450
    8:00 p.m. 697 gave shot and food and walk 20 minutes afterwards.

    I know I need more blood samples and glucose curves which I will take as soon as the Accu-Chek SoftClix Plus arrives. I take the blood samples from Buddy's carpals as it is close to impossible with the gums or ears.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

  • #2
    Re: BUDDY

    Originally posted by buddy View Post
    11-03-12:
    8am 600 feed and shot
    10:30 127, 152, 171 took three tests from same sample
    1am 252, 269 took two tests from same sample
    3:30 610, 600 took two tests from same sample

    11-04-12
    8am 645
    10:30 159
    3:00 600

    I was thinking too much insulin and a Somadji rebound. However, on 11-03, the glucose was only in the mid 250s by 1pm.

    Also, I posted a curve below that shows results after 2 weeks on 5 units -- not much effect.


    8a.m. 300 walked Buddy for 1/2 hour before the glucose test. Gave shot and food right after glucose test.
    10a.m. 320
    noon 432
    2 pm 330 walked 1/2 hour at 3pm
    4:30 450
    6:00 450
    8:00 p.m. 697 gave shot and food and walk 20 minutes afterwards.

    I know I need more blood samples and glucose curves which I will take as soon as the Accu-Chek SoftClix Plus arrives. I take the blood samples from Buddy's carpals as it is close to impossible with the gums or ears.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Welcome! I'm about to go out the door on errands, but wanted to say "hello".

    Was that possibly a misprint on 11-3? Was there REALLY a reading at 1AM, or was that actually 1PM?

    Did you give any type of snack / treat before those high 600 readings at 3PM? That's a pretty big increase if there wasn't some type of food involved!

    Gotta run, but will be back in an hour or two.
    Annie was an 18 pound Lhasa Apso that crossed the rainbow bridge on 10-5-17. She was nearly 17 years old and diabetic for 9½ years.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BUDDY

      Craig,

      Thanks for the catch -- the time you are referring to on 11-3 was 1 pm.

      We did feed Buddy a few small hamburger pieces and cooked broccoli -- but not much.
      Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BUDDY

        Originally posted by buddy View Post
        Craig,

        Thanks for the catch -- the time you are referring to on 11-3 was 1 pm.

        We did feed Buddy a few small hamburger pieces and cooked broccoli -- but not much.
        You're gonna hear this alot: "every dog is different", so take my comments with a grain of salt. If Annie gets just about ANY food in the afternoon she will spike her blood glucose (BG). In fact, just 5-6 pieces of dry dog kibble will cause a rise! "Every dog is different!" I wouldn't think a small piece of broccoli would hurt, but I'm not sure about hamburger. Probably best not to give anything between meals just yet. Yea, they do beg!

        Very important to keep things as consistent as possible. Same food, same amount of food, fed at the same times - 12 hours apart. There are some here that vary from this norm, but until Buddy is determined to require "special needs", I recommend keeping everything as consistent as possible. Many of us use a kitchen scale to weigh the meals because we feel measuring cups just aren't as repeatable.

        6 units of Novolin-N might still be a little light. A common rule-of-thumb for a starting dosage is .2 units per pound. So, a 25 pounder might be started at 5 units. Again, every dog is different. Just as an example, Annie weighs 18 pounds and is getting 7 units of Novolin-N.

        You might want to try a few days without any between meal snacks and see how that works. Does Buddy eat without problems? If so, you might try feeding ONLY the WD (whatever the bag recommends). We treat our pups as family, so we think we should make their meals something we would enjoy (chicken, hamburger, etc.)! Extra foods = more potential inconsistencies. Of course these are just my thoughts, others do mix in people food, or make home cooked meals for their pups and have good results. Annie gets 2.1 OZ of dry kibble, moistened with 4 tablespoons of warm water as her meals. She might get a very small amount of broccoli or cauliflower once or twice a week that doesn't seem to affect her. If she gets anything between meals (given, or found on the floor) I expect her numbers to be high.
        Annie was an 18 pound Lhasa Apso that crossed the rainbow bridge on 10-5-17. She was nearly 17 years old and diabetic for 9½ years.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BUDDY

          Just wanted to say hi and welcome to you and Buddy. I also have a MiniSchnauzer and just started the dog diabetes journey 10/24. My Munch is on Novolin N also but currently only 5 units which basically does zilch. I too am concerned about his weight loss and seeing those 600+ numbers. Yesterday he actually hit a 159 fasting and I thought, oh boy!, but it was short lived.

          There are a number of MiniSchnauzers on this forum and I'm seeing pretty much the same thing when I read their threads. Seems they can be on the difficult side to regulate but it's still doable.

          Wish I could give you some words of wisdom but I'm too new at this. There are plenty of experienced people on the board and like I said, several MiniS owners, and I'm sure they'll give you some good input.

          Best of luck to you and Buddy.

          Louise
          Munchie, 11 yr. old Mini-Schnauzer, 23.2 lbs., diabetes 10/24/12. 8 units Novolin N 2xdaily.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BUDDY

            I also want to chime in and say welcome to you and buddy. Craig gave some valuable information to consider. My dog used to eat 3 meals a day being a giant breed to avoid bloat. One of the hardest things was getting him to two meals, 12 hours apart. After a few weeks though he seemed to stop begging and following me into the kitchen....LOL

            If you can, only change one thing at a time......if you are working on food then stick to the same dose of insulin. When you do make any changes with insulin, it will need to settle in for 3 days or so before you can expect to see any changes, even slight ones.

            Stay patient and don't lose faith. Getting to regulation took us almost 6 full months of adjusting, tweaking, figuring out how exercise fit in and what its affect was. I also feed my guy WD kibble with a gravy made from WD can and boiled boneless chicken breast. I measure everything on a digital kitchen scale everyday, feed at the same time, walk at almost the same times ect....I also keep a detailed daily log of food, insulin, activity, snacks if any along with all the testing done.

            Lots of great wisdom on this board from some very "seasoned" pro's who are more than willing to help. The more information you can give the better it will be for feedback...don't hesitate to keep posting questions and results of your management.
            Jim/Marijane & Spirit, Newfoundland, born Dec 22, 2007, 115lbs. DX Oct. 2011, 18.5 units Humulin 2x per day. Hills WD kibble, Hills WD can made into gravy, boiled chicken. Spirit passed on June 9, 2016 and it had nothing to do with diabetes.....farewell my buddy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BUDDY

              Hi Buddy,
              Welcome, I am also new to diabetes my 7 year old mini schnauzer was diagnosed the end of Aug. We are still a work in progress it is slow and sometimes it seems like the road has no end but numbers are lower than when we started and they are very level on curves. Bogie also eats W/D and I add in boiled chicken breast for added calories but he is still thin. He only gets an occasional frozen green bean between meals and is fed at 12 hour intervals, I also weigh all of his food. I am told he will not gain much weight until we can get his numbers lower when that happens his body will start to utilizes food properly and we will start to see him put on some weight again.
              You will get great information here... I get better information from everyone here than my own vet
              Hang in there and once again welcome
              Dawn & Bogie
              Last edited by BogiesMom; 11-05-2012, 05:02 PM.
              Bogie is a 8 year old 24 pound Miniture Schnauzer, Dx on 08/24/12. Home cooked diet formulated by Just Food For Dogs, Switching from Levemir to Vetsulin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BUDDY

                Thanks CraigM and Louise!

                CraigM, I'll have to be more disciplined in restricting food. The way I see it, the insulin must be losing all efficacy by 3pm because it is a U-shaped curve. Thanks for the tremendous help your website provides.

                Louise, thanks for your thread. Yes, I'm getting an excellent education from many of the Schnauzer threads and posts like Bogie, BoJanie and so many others.
                Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BUDDY

                  Jim,

                  Thanks for the great advice! I am impatient like so many others regarding getting the BG down as we don't want our pup's eyesight to be affected if we can possibly help.
                  Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BUDDY

                    Originally posted by buddy View Post
                    The way I see it, the insulin must be losing all efficacy by 3pm because it is a U-shaped curve.
                    That is probably true, especially if there was additional food given in the afternoon.

                    An increase in insulin usually increases the peak (lowest BG number), and increases the duration (length of time the insulin works). In theory, an increased dose might keep the insulin from running out of oomph quite so fast. Of course its more important not to increase the insulin and cause a too low of a BG earlier in the cycle.

                    Don't think we've asked about other medical conditions, or other medications? Is Buddy taking any other medications? Many diabetics develop eye problems and get prescribed eye drops that can mess with BG. Annie had an appointment with her eye vet this morning and it was found she has an eye infection (AGAIN!). She was put on Tobramycin which might mess with her BG. The infection itself might have been the cause of some wacky readings recently.

                    I know you said you are using Novolin-N. Are you getting it at Walmart? Walmart sells a reboxed Novolin-N under their ReliOn branding for $24.88. Lots cheaper than anywhere else! Syringes are also less expensive there. Prescriptions are not required in most States, but best to check before you run out (State, local and sometimes company laws / policies differ).

                    Also wonder which meter you are using? You can usually get better prices on test strips online than at local pharmacies.

                    Craig
                    Last edited by CraigM; 11-05-2012, 06:03 PM.
                    Annie was an 18 pound Lhasa Apso that crossed the rainbow bridge on 10-5-17. She was nearly 17 years old and diabetic for 9½ years.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: BUDDY

                      Hi and welcome! You've already gotten some really great advice so I don't have much to add this time except to reccomend patience. It can take months to regulate or it can take weeks. It's a crapshoot really as to which your dog will manage. In the meantime...take it slowly, work on the food and just keep on going! Hugs!
                      Shell and Hank (aka Mr. Pickypants) - now deceased (4/29/1999 - 12/4/2015) Cairn Terrier mix who was diagnosed 8/18/2011 and on .75 U Levemir 2Xday. Miss you little man!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: BUDDY

                        Originally posted by buddy View Post
                        Hi Everyone,

                        Thanks for all the excellent information!

                        We have a 7 year old 25 lbs miniature schnauzer named Buddy -- just diagnosed a month ago with glucose at 460. We started him on 4 units Novolin N and have slowly raised it to 6 units. We feed 2 cups presription WD in morning and 1 cup in eve with some chicken breast and 96% lean hamburger (boiled) and he is still losing weight:

                        Hi Buddy, just wanted to comment where I think I can help a bit. Have you calculated how much food Buddy needs for his weight? We are feeding 2 cups a day total (25 lbs), plus very few treats. Reducing the food actually made the bg go down for him (now this on Levemir, we had no luck on NPH). Once the bg came down, the weight came back on.

                        Here are the latest curves the past two days:

                        11-03-12:
                        8am 600 feed and shot
                        10:30 127, 152, 171 took three tests from same sample
                        1am 252, 269 took two tests from same sample
                        3:30 610, 600 took two tests from same sample

                        11-04-12
                        8am 645
                        10:30 159
                        3:00 600

                        I was thinking too much insulin and a Somadji rebound. However, on 11-03, the glucose was only in the mid 250s by 1pm.

                        Also, I posted a curve below that shows results after 2 weeks on 5 units -- not much effect.
                        If the insulin dose is not working after a few days, we raise ours, we found waiting 2 full weeks, the vet's recommendation, was a bit long when the curves show high bg all day. Your NPH 6 units does seem to be working some though, maybe just not long enough?

                        8a.m. 300 walked Buddy for 1/2 hour before the glucose test. Gave shot and food right after glucose test.
                        10a.m. 320
                        noon 432
                        2 pm 330 walked 1/2 hour at 3pm
                        4:30 450
                        6:00 450
                        8:00 p.m. 697 gave shot and food and walk 20 minutes afterwards.

                        I know I need more blood samples and glucose curves which I will take as soon as the Accu-Chek SoftClix Plus arrives. I take the blood samples from Buddy's carpals as it is close to impossible with the gums or ears.
                        If you can take the sample from the inside of the lip, you will probably be better off and so will Buddy. Using the Alphatrak 2 meter, you need the tiniest drop of blood and that area is not painful to them.
                        Any thoughts would be appreciated.
                        Don't panic and hang in there. You will figure it out!
                        Last edited by BoJanie; 11-06-2012, 07:40 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: BUDDY

                          Thanks Craig,

                          Buddy has a voracious appetite.

                          He has no other medical conditions and his fructosamine test came back good.

                          Thanks to your site, we use the Alphatrak 2 kit and the Relion Prime (and multiply by 1.5.) and we do get the insulin at WalMart ($24.88 vs $88 at CVS)and we buy test strips at the americandiabeteswholesale.com or Ebay.

                          By the way, Ebay sells the Alphatrak without a Vet's permission but americandiabeteswholesale.com had to have an OK from our Vet to sell us the Alphatrak test strips.
                          Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: BUDDY

                            Buddy,

                            When Bo's sugar was really high, or high most of the day, he acted hungry all the time because he wasn't utilizing the food he was being given. More regulated and less food, he's actually put on weight, looks good and feels good. As somebody mentioned, getting the strips off ebay is ok if the strips are not expired. I like american diabetes wholesale because their prices are often better and they have very good and fast service - can't believe how quickly we go through those test strips!

                            Janie

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: BUDDY

                              Thanks BoJanie for the excellent advice. Very helpful. Like Craig's post it makes us realize the importance of sticking to the schedule. There is no doubt Buddy has received more treats than we want to admit. This is a total change for him as he used to get 1/2 cup Hills dog food to start the morning and then lots of chicken breast, lean hamburger, steak, roast, fish, milk bone dog biscuits etc throughout the entire day. He also took about an hour walk in the morning after eating and then got lots of food right after the walk as well.

                              In the afternoon he gets a 45 min to an hour fast walk at 3pm so he still runs directly over to his food bowl after his afternoon walk -- which we've cut back to 30 to 45 minutes.

                              Physically, Buddy has always been in tremendous shape with an incredible amount of energy and no fat on him even long before the diagnosis. He's lost probably 7 pounds in the past 3 months -- from 30 down to 23 pounds.

                              We'll have to retry the lip as I've seen many say that's a good place. Buddy simply struggles and licks constantly.
                              Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                              Comment

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