Bogie - miniature schnauzer

[BogiesMom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

ok but where did he used to be? higher? then that means the insulin is working; he just may need more. If levemir is 4 times stronger than NPH then he has not hit the 1 unit for 1 pound test yet for true insulin resistance.

1/4 of 25 pounds would be 6 units. Hang in there Dawn, I don't have much knowledge but I have lots of sympathy. And you know the cushings drill. His cortisol could be high right now due to the diabetes and his other issues. If he doesn't have cushings symptoms, no need to test or treat.

hugs, Judi

ps. the WD usually helps them with regulation so I don't know if I'd switch if he is eating it

Hi Judi,
In the beginning he was very occasionally in the low 400's but mainly upper to mid 300's. So yes he has come down a little.
If he does meet insulin resistance which would be close to 6 units of levemir (he currently weighs about 23, 22 pounds) wouldn't that be a symptom of cushings I know there needs to be more symptoms present and diabetic dogs show very similar symptoms. I really wish my vet would stop bring this up to me because it really pushes me over the edge sometimes I read some good information that Dr Peterson wrote and it did help explain when to treat I would really like to find additional information like that to read... It's google time again I wish they had a book (Canine Diabetes For Dummies) I would certainly buy it
Bogie is due for blood work in January so I am going to have them do a fasting test so we can test for excess lipids... I don't think they have ever checked that because he has never been fasted for blood work.
I'll hold off on the diet change and see if we can get his levels down if not then I’ll look into it. He has stayed very level on the W/D and levemir and I am thankful for that... It just break my heart to see him so thin
I wasn't able to get a hold of the cushings mod so I will try her later and if all else fails I will send her a message through the cushings forum.

Hey There, I am not sure at what ratio insulin resistance is determined, but I would guess you have a ways to go.

I think it is possible that he just needs more insulin. The amount each dog gets is so dog dependent. For instance, my 17# dog gets less then 1/2 of what Craig's dog gets and I think Annie is only 2# more then Ruby.

So my approach would be to curve for informational purposes and increase. Now I am not sure on all the times with all the variables in the numbers below, but the nice thing is they are all pretty close together.

Keep your chin up.

Tara

Thanks Tara, I'll do the curve tomorrow and see where we stand... I really hope we have better numbers.

[BogiesMom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

Hope your mind is set at ease after you have the conversation today. I agree with Judi. I think getting diabetes regulated would be #1 on the priority list right now. IMO with no Cushings symptoms I wouldn't be pursuing testing at this point (been there done that).

The Cushings Guru, Dr. Edward Feldman, would and does say no symptoms, don't treat. I know you're worried about Bogie and his health and I can certainly empathize. We want the best for our babies and it sounds like you're doing a very good job to me.

Louise

PS: If you think Bogie has a bit of a pot, go look at pictures of actual dogs who have Cushings and you'll see the difference.

Thank you Louise,

I wasn't able to get a hold of Glynda so I will try her later and if all else fails I will send her a message through the cushings forum.

I'll google Dr Feldman and see what I can come up with... I really want to learn all I can so I can be ontop of this if it does come about.

I hope Munchie is doing better today.

Dawn

[Judi]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

I understand. My Jenny did have cushings and at 8 pounds, she got up to 7 units of NPH before we could budge her out of the 400-600's so I totally get it. I'm just repeating to you what some of the experienced folks said to me to keep me from climbing the walls.

He has made some improvement. So it is working. I think the full curve will definitely tell the tale. It is so frustrating. (I've never earned a patience hat LOL)

Any vet will tell you that the 2 types of tests for cushings are only about 80% accurate. All they do is measure cortisol levels in a dog's body. So if a dog's body is stressed from diabetes, or other issues, their cortisol will be up. Unfortunately we have seen a lot of dogs incorrectly diagnosed with Cushings when they didn't really have it.

Jenny had crummy skin and fur, a serious pot belly, looked for cool places to lie down, and ate like a horse.

Her first vet doesn't treat cushings and I was in denial after googling. When she was losing weight from the diabetes, yet her pot belly still stuck out, her vet tech and I discussed the possibility of cushings. Vet #2 said just from reading her history he was 99% sure she had it before he examined her. She was easy to diagnose. Others, not so much.

the cushings tests are not cheap so I would hold off till you get the diabetes under control. Since you are able to test at home you will be able to monitor and reduce insulin if that is needed.

Judi

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

Dawn,

I am going to chime in here with my experience, and if it were not for Glynda on the K9Cushings forum, I am sure that Abby would have been an Addison dog, because they would have treated her for Cushings when she did not have it. I had the tests done, she was positive in her ACTH test. She had an ultrasound done as well. Her vet at the time said she had Cushings and she was not diabetic. Stop insulin, and take Trilostane.

Cushings is something that you treat for symptons. If Bogie doesn't have any symptoms, for example increase of water consumption (after he gets into normal range with diabetes), and bad skin, loss of hair around the tummy, all the things that Judi mentioned below, in addition to being insulin resistant, then I would move forward with testing.

Now, Abby seems to be a hard dog to regulate... I get good days, and then I get some high numbers here and there, but we have approached our normalcy.

Schnauzers have been noted to need ALOT of insulin, and they also seem to have high triglycerides. I would not be worrying about cushings as this point, and not sure if I would be moving forward with the tests either. For us, it was a waste of hard earned money.

Barb

[BoJanie]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

Dawn,

Our numbers have been odd the last couple of days and wonder if the time change can affect the numbers? Bo's sugar was over 500 this am and on the new bottle! I did give him a unit of fast acting novolog and it came down. By 5:00pm this evening, his bg was 160. The other thing you might consider is the food and the amount. When I was feeding Bo 1 1/4 dry food twice a day, his bgs were much higher than they are now (except for this am). I went to 1 cup twice a day and the numbers came down. I do give treats when his bg is under 150 and and I know the insulin has not peaked, a few bites of canned food Royal Canin PV, or mini carrots or tiny training treats. What I have cut out is boiled chicken. How much do you give? I found when I gave it as a treat for testing, it raised his bg quite a bit, much more than the items mentioned above. Also, if I give him bites of canned W/D, it goes up. Just a thought to consider the food.
Our food is 75% W/d dry and 25% Royal Canin PV dry, and daily fishoil capsule. I refused to go W/d dry only as he was on it for pancreatitis a couple of years ago and his coat was dry. I went to a specialist who prescribed the Royal Canin PV. Bo's coat was shiny and he felt great until the diabetes diagnosis. The vet said to switch to W/D. This is a compromise and seems to be good for the most part. Oddly, the boiled chicken breast, even a few bites, raised his bg.

[BogiesMom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

I just checked Bogies numbers and he is at 406... He's never been that high in the evening before. I wish I knew what was going on here I really hope he is lower in the morning.

[BogiesMom]

Curve Day and Slight Food Change

Decided to do a curve today...

Last night I decided to try BoJanie recomindation to decrease the wet food. So my choice was to lower his can food 4.4oz to 4.1oz and his chicken from 3.5oz to 3.3oz I left the dry at 2.5oz. I can always increase the dry later and slowly raise the chicken to see if it spikes his BG or if it stays the same.

Before I fed him last night 6pm his BG was 406 @ 10pm it was down to 301. This morning his fasting was down to 238. I fed him at 5:40am and @ his 7:40am BG check he went up to 343.
Were going to go out for a short walk here in a few min and then recheck just before 10am.

I'll post all of the numbers later and see where we stand... and well see if the food makes a differance.

Dawn

[peggy0]

Re: Curve Day

Interesting. Protein always raised forbins BGs. I had to watch what meat I gave him

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

This is where the phrase of every dog is different.

I give Abby small pieces of chicken, as a reward for testing, or as a small treat when trimming nails and brushing the teeth. Never does it raise her blood sugar.

I found that when there is more protein, we have lower and more stable numbers with less spikes.

I think that is the goal here. A nice even, level BG readings throughout the day. Once that is acheived then you can raise the insulin dose.

Testing is so much fun, isn't it

[Linda1]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

I've been giving Jake very small pieces of meat when I feel he needs a special treat for whatever reason. I felt protein would be better than a carb. and assumed it wouldn't do much to his bg numbers. Guess I better check what the meat does to him.

[CraigM]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

I've spent the past half hour searching "protein blood sugar" to see what the internet says on the subject. The only thing I accomplished was to give myself a headache.

Seems most articles indicate meat style protein isn't expected to raise BG, but one or two articles said it could.

I haven't fed Annie much meat between meals, so I don't have real experience. I do recall a big BG rise years ago when we gave Annie a beef bone with a bit of meat attached. I'm thinking the rise was more due to the excitement / exercise of gnawing on the bone than the meat, but what do I know?

[peggy0]

Re: Curve Day

Complex carbs evened Forbin out. As you say craig it depends on the dog

[BoJanie]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

I was giving the chicken breast cubes for testing treats.Now we mainly use green beans for treats. The only meat product we use daily is canned Royal Canin potato venision to wrap the fishoil tab, and that is usually when the bg is at it's lowest or after a walk. I tried to do that with W/D canned, but it raised the bg. Chicken, egg (and corn) are main ingredients. That's why I mentioned it to Dawn, maybe Bogie has this issue too with this type protein. And corn, that has sugar.

[BogiesMom]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

Well, so far so good... Not sure if it was the canned food or the chicken but were getting good numbers today...

5:30am 238
7:30am 343
9:30am 199
11:40 166
1:45. 190


We still have 2 more numbers to post but these are the best numbers he has had thus far
I'll post the whole curve tonight.

[BoJanie]

Re: Bogie - miniature schnauzer

Yea Bogie!