New to forum and diabetic dogs

[gurgsnekr]

Greetings,
My dog info
Dog breed Rhodesian Ridgeback/Mastiff (leaning towards English Mastiff, not too sure)
Name Kaima
Age 9 years
Weight ~70 lbs
Diagnosed with Diabetes two weeks ago
Insulin 9 units in the am, 9 units in the evening. Humulin

Ok, so about two weeks ago we noticed Kaima acting weird. Lethargic, drinking lots of water and having urinary accidents in the house, weight loss and becoming increasingly weak. A trip to the vet and she was diagnosed with Diabetes. She stayed at the vet while they were trying to get her blood sugars under control (over 500). After Kaima spent a week there my wife and I took her home. We've had some experience with treating my niece who is a type 1 and my wife who used to be type 2, so we were confident we can manage Kaima's blood sugars at home.

Since we got Kaima home we have had a lot of difficulty getting her blood sugars under control. 400+/500+ and today 600. We are having a very hard time getting her levels below 250. She is still weak and while excited to go on walks, tires out very quickly to the point of collapsing, unable to get up.

Kaima is a very picky eater and turns her nose up to the food the vet sent us home with so we've been kind of flying blind with what is available. This past week has been Iams and Zignature with some scrambled eggs, ground beef and fresh caught trout as treats. Today my wife and I found out the dog food we have been giving her (Iams and Zignature) was loaded with carbohydrates. Roughly 50% carbohydrates. We are trying to plan out foods we can make for her so we know exactly what it is made of. Right now we are thinking more of the ground beef, eggs, ground turkey and more of the fresh river trout, all cooked of course.

The main reason I'm posting this is to gather more information on what we can feed her to get her weight back up while helping to control her blood sugar. I know there are foods that we will need to avoid but I would really like some advice and or options for foods/recipes that would be beneficial to her. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[CraigM]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Only have a minute, but wanted to welcome you to the forum.

You will see that we feed all sorts of food. Typically, we try to get lower than average fat, and possibly higher in fiber. Also, repeatability will be important: same amount and content will make things easier. Avoid (limit) between meal treats until you know what affects Kaima.

9 units is a pretty low starting dosage. A general rule of thumb is to start at 0.2 units per pound, so a 70 pounder would frequently be started around 14 units twice a day after her meals.

You might want to switch to Novolin-N from Walmart. It's only $25 for the vial. Walmart has a contract with Novo Nodisk, a huge international maker of insulin, to sell its Novolin-N at a huge discount.

Craig

[maggiegirl]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

My dog Maggie has just been diagnosed as well. Same type of history as your baby. The high numbers are scary. I have been giving Maggie egg.ground chicken,a little barley and chicken broth. She is now down in the 200-350 range. You can get a lot of useful info here so it won' be quite so scary. Best of luck to both of us and everyone else trying to do the best job of taking care of their furry babies. My vet started her on 4 units 2x times a day.

[amydunn19]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Welcome - sorry you are having difficulties but two weeks is still pretty new. Like you, my dog, refused the prescription food. Diabetic dogs do need some carbs to work with the insulin. Their diabetes is akin to human type 1 so you can't really translate that same diet thought process. Higher protein and high fat don't usually work as well with injected insulin, either. I would look for moderate in protein, lower in fat, and higher in fiber(although fiber can be added in powder form). Maggie ate Nutrisca, Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight and late in her her life, Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Duck/pea but there are so many that work. The key is consistency- same food, same amount, every day at the same time. Usually right before injections(12 hours apart). A wet food added to kibble may help with eating. Same thing - not too fatty. I used Merrick canned stews, Nutrisca and Weruva has a low fat line with Chicken(Maggie's favorite of all time). See what brands are available to you locally. The limited ingredient diets are helpful because the recipes usually do one protein meat source and one complex carb but it really can be just about any brand. Even Wal Mart carries a food called Ideal Balance that many dogs do well on. Everybody here feeds something different.

As far as gaining weight, there is this thing with unregulated diabetic dogs - high blood sugar essentially starves them so they eat and the food goes right through them with no benefit at all. So, people might panic, feed more, pushing blood sugar even higher, and they still keep losing and a vicious cycle ensues. The best way to get weight on your dog is get the diet consistent, and get that blood sugar down.

Do you test at home? This is something I highly recommend. I used a human meter which worked fine for my purposes for almost 9 years, but there is a fairly new animal meter called the Advocate - I think there is a thread about it floating around. Some of the others can tell you where they ordered theirs. Big dogs are usually easy to test with elbow calluses. Vets don't always love the idea but you have the dog at key times and you will be the most qualified person to test the dog. You just can't panic if you see high numbers. I think vets worry people will just arbitrarily start upping insulin which can be dangerous if not done correctly. Try to work with the vet as a partner but remember that you are an advocate for your dog. Sometimes, they try to dictate things like diet and not testing because they don't want to miss out on that pricey food and those expensive blood glucose curves. Arm yourself with knowledge and you can get this under control.

We can help. My Maggie almost made it nine years with diabetes and if I was able to learn it, anybody can; because I was one hot mess when I started out.

[jesse girl]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

We decided to go the homemade route with jessie early in her diagnosis ; it was partially raw mostly meat protein . Over time we added things and removed things to help with blood sugar to where we are today where she is 70 percent vegetarian which may not sound as high as what you may see with a commercial dog food and the fillers that are added which maybe more than meat protein .

now the homemade route is not common in our society and diabetic pups are no exception . I think the fear for most is that is difficult to do this and get the balance for a dog to live a healthy life . i had that fear but it did not make sense to my logical side of my brain commercial dog food is a relatively new concept in the history of dogs and survived without it for many moons

the only supplement i give her is powdered eggshells which is not a processed supplement but a natural part of her diet as she does get hard boiled eggs with her meal

[chrmyr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

I thought I'd try to give a little help here. We have a large breed pup - Great Dane - who was diagnosed at 12 weeks old. Like you, we couldn't give her the weight control food that most diabetic dogs get. She needs to grow. So we are feeding her Blue Wilderness Large Breed Salmon recipe. This gives her the nutrients she needs as a large breed dog, but is grain free and one of the higher fiber foods available. I still mix about a 1/4 cup of the Hills W/D in with her feedings to give extra fiber. I also mix in some fresh Salmon, scrambled egg, or the W/D canned to increase her appetite.

I do agree that for a 70 lbs dog that 9 units is a bit low. Luna is getting 15 now and her numbers are good. Staying consistently below 300.

For treats, we give frozen green beans, broccoli, and carrots (though sparingly). I've also eased up a bit and will give her some cooked chicken or a small bite of steak here and there.

Hope this helps.

[gurgsnekr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Greetings everyone,

Thank you for all of your responses. My wife and I really appreciate you sharing your experiences with what works for you. We are testing at home with an extra meter my niece had. Getting samples from her that we can use that is a challenge. I am seeing a common theme with protein, fats and fiber that I'm not fully understanding. What ratio should my wife and I be looking for when it comes to buying something at the store?

Right now Kaima is resting, not doing much beyond moving around the house or going outside once in a while for bathroom and sunbathing. I've been too afraid to take her for our evening walks fearing she is going to collapse again. We are constantly getting 500+ and even a few "HIGH" readings when we test at 6 hours after insulin.

I want to keep going with the high protein foods right now and let the insulin lower her levels so I can start switching to something more balanced. Something tells me that I am missing something and I'm not sure what it is. More insulin? New meter to rule out false results? Try something different with the food? It is very frustrating.

My wife gave her 11 units of insulin this around 4:30 pm. We want to see how she does. Kaima's last test reading was HIGH on the display earlier about same time. She had some cooked beef scraps that she apparently "scarfed down." We just tested a few minutes ago and it's down to 478 and it's about 8 pm now (yea!)

[chrmyr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

I would say to keep increasing the insulin by 2 units until you start seeing some good numbers. That's my experience anyway. That is what we did with Luna at the beginning.

As for food, the higher the fiber the better. It's hard to find a non-weight control food that is though. The Blue Wilderness we feed is 6% and that is one of the higher in fiber that is available.

Keep at it. You'll find the path, it can just take some time.

[tonyr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

If you are still looking for food ideas then check out this link.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/

[Rover]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Hello you're in a good place, sorry about what happen to your dog. Anyone here can give you a good advice about the situation of your dog.
Since my dog been diagnosed of diabetic my vet told me about this dog food for dogs with diabetes with the help of this and proper diet my dog is become active and I feel like his not been diagnosed of diabetes and thankful because my vet gave this kind of information I learn a lot of things on how to control his blood sugar

[CraigM]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

We are testing at home with an extra meter my niece had.

Because there is a difference between human and dog's blood, many use a meter designed for dogs such as with the PetTest. Don't know if this special is still valid: https://www.countrysidepet.com/colle...st-test-strips

Or Amazon if the special sale is done.

If you stay with a human meter, realize the reading from the meter is probably lower than true. The recent 478 reading is likely really over 600 true. The difference between human and dog meters generally increases as the numbers rise. A 100 on the human meter might be around 130ish on a dog meter, but a 400 (human meter) might be as high as 550+ on a dog meter. Many folks do use human meters, just realize there is an error and you need to be pro-active getting the numbers down into the 100s.

Craig

[amydunn19]

Only testing at six hours post insulin doesn't really tell you much about how they are doing. The 6 hour mark is when they are supposed to be at their lowest but it is not the same for every dog and many times, dogs experience their lowest point right before their insulin is due again.

[gurgsnekr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Hi CraigM

Many folks do use human meters, just realize there is an error and you need to be pro-active getting the numbers down into the 100s.

Craig

Thank you.

After reading your post I realized I should probably do some more research, and you are right. I should get a pet meter for more accurate readings, but that will take some time. I had done some preliminary research between the pet meters and human meters before we started using it. I came across a couple of pages were saying that there wasn't too much of a difference unless the the glucose levels were below 100. There was also something about having to calibrate the human meter a couple of times a year to help keep it accurate for measuring pets. I don't remember too much more than that as I only got a glance.

The recent 478 reading is likely really over 600 true. The difference between human and dog meters generally increases as the numbers rise. A 100 on the human meter might be around 130ish on a dog meter, but a 400 (human meter) might be as high as 550+ on a dog meter.

This scares me because we've had quite a few readings that were 600 and a few readings where the meter only read HI. HI is above the limit of the meter we are using, 600. Thank you very pointing this out.

Looks like I'll be doing more research.

[gurgsnekr]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Only testing at six hours post insulin doesn't really tell you much about how they are doing. The 6 hour mark is when they are supposed to be at their lowest but it is not the same for every dog and many times, dogs experience their lowest point right before their insulin is due again.

Hi amydunn

To be honest, that didn't make sense to me. The vet tech I had called over the weekend told us that was when we should check. Given my experiences with my niece and my wife, we would always test before a meal and then give the insulin after the meal. We would test outside of that schedule either to rule out problems in between and make adjustments to her diet and/or insulin intake if necessary. The vet tech's advice for the peak effectiveness of the insulin seems more like for something like a stomach medicine she was on and not insulin.

Should I be using my schedule or a modified version of my schedule?

[stylynjm]

Re: New to forum and diabetic dogs

Hi,
It seems to me your schedule is the correct one.test before food, then insulin after food... and test in between when you feel necessary. ..