Bowzer the Aussie Cattle Dog

[6K9S]

Good Morning everyone; and thank you for allowing me into this group. I am new to treating diabetes in my dog. My Aussie Cattle Dog, Bowzer was diagnosed about four weeks ago. He is 11 years old, has a host of anxieties and compulsion issues. Long story short is I was told he is diabetic when I brought him to the vet while observing his excessive drinking. His sugar during that visit was 598. I was feeding him Earthborn Holistic Grain Free Weight Control diet. I was told to start out with 13 units of Novolin N twice a day. My vet told me I didn't have to check his glucose, but to bring him back a week later. At that time he was upped to 15 units twice a day. I did this for another week, and someone gave me their glucose monitor. So, I have since been checking his levels. I thought a change in his food might be a step in the right direction, and so I started a slow change from Earthborn to Merrick Grain Free Chicken/Sweet Potato which is what he was on a while back (do to the carbs in both foods). Well since then, I cannot seem to get his glucose below 250 with food and insulin, it seems to stay steady at that level 250-290 like that. Vet upped to 19 units twice a day, but still hasn't changed. Does anyone have any suggestions for me?...Can it be the Merrick that I am in the process of switching to? Anyone ever use either of these two foods? Thanks for your help. I seem to be a one man show when it comes to treating Bowzer. Vet seems way to busy to help. Thanks again

[jim maceri]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Hello and welcome. You will get much great advice and support from our forum. It would be helpful if you could let us know what type of meter you are using and what the weight of your dog is.

I like to do things nice and slow when it comes to increasing or decreasing insulin amounts so at first glance it seems going from 13 to 15 units was a big jump and from 15 to 19 seems way to much for a dose increase. It usually takes 3-5 days for insulin dose changes to take effect…..then do a BG curve to see what the lows are. When making changes to insulin you always want to make decisions based on the low number and not the high numbers and a curve is how you determine that.

Lots more suggestions will be coming in so hold on!

BTW…it is awesome that you are testing, that is the key to getting to regulation.

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

I was given the Reli-On Confirm. I just found out something interesting though. The first bottle of insulin I purchased was from the vets office. My friend, (who is a pharmacist at walmart), told me the Novolin N (reli-on) was the same insulin at half the price. So I purchased it, and the same day I opened the new bottle was also the same day I started the food change. Do you think just because the insulin had (reli on) on the box the formula was somehow different, and thus not as effective?

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Bowzer is currently 59 pounds. (down from 70 pounds since using the Earthborn Holistic Weight Control).

[CraigM]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Welcome!
As Jim asked, how much does your pup weigh? (Just read the post on the weight: OK on the 59 pounds)
The Novolin-N from Walmart is the same Novolin-N that can be purchased elsewhere, so that isn't going to be a problem. Most of us who use Novolin-N get ours from Walmart for the $$$ savings. Syringes are also less expensive at Walmart.

The ReliOn Confirm meter is nice. I have one that I used for several years. Most human meters will read dog blood lower (because of the difference between human & dog blood) than true so the 250ish readings you are seeing are likely closer to a true 350-380ish. This difference really isn't all that important so early on. A rough conversion factor I've come up with is to divide the Confirm's readout by .66 to get a number closer to true In your case 250 divided by .66 = 378. Some take their meter on the trips to the vet clinic and take a reading there at the same time the vet tech takes his/her reading and compare readings.

It's going to be important to get on a consistent food. Different foods may affect the blood glucose in different ways, so swapping between types may cause difficulties. Have you cut out between meal snacks / treats? These can affect the blood glucose. Basically, anything that enters their body )food, treats, oral medications, eye drops, etc.) can affect readings.

Gotta run. My Annie has a grooming appointment in 30 minutes and we have to get going. BTW, the grooming session WILL affect her glucose reading this afternoon because excitement / exercise can cause them to use their insulin differently than normal.

"Testing is fun!"

Craig

[jesse girl]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

hi and welcome

this is why it can be so difficult to regulate a pup at the vet with limited monitoring . which may force the vet to move more aggressively with dosing . raising 2 units twice a day with numbers in the 200s is to much and 4 units is out of the question

ranges in the 200s is not bad and not in crisis for many dogs they would call this regulated to give you some perspective.

my dog has epilepsy and anxiety issues and can play havoc with blood sugar .

food is a tough one to figure sometime a blood testing curve can point us in a more appropriate food to try but bouncing around to much doesn't work very well like insulin it needs time for the body to get use to it (settle )

now if you are seeing blood sugar in the 200s with little fluctuation that is very stable blood sugar and thats very good . if a dogs blood sugar is a 100 points or lower from low to high thats very stable blood sugar for a dog and very good

it can take 6 months or longer to get to a place your comfortable with most are very happy with blood sugar from 150 to 250 for the day . dogs with higher blood sugar have lived and had normal life spans with higher .

with you testing at home you will be able to do curves and maybe make better choices than what your vet has done recently with dosing but like i said i understand the limitations with just using the vet for monitoring and regulation .

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Thank you for your reply. Bowzer only gets half of an Orijen freeze dried treat in the morning when I go to work, and the other half at night when we go to bed. He gets nothing at all between meals. He gets 1 1/2 cups of food twice a day with a teaspoon of pumpkin and a teaspoon of Merrick wet food (my 17 year old dog has no teeth, so I always give him the wet food, but always shared a bit with Bowzer because he could smell the canned food). He does get medication with meals, so he gets a tiny piece of turkey to hide his pill am and pm as well as Actistatin (for his bad hips and joints) at meal time as well.

[CraigM]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Thank you for your reply. Bowzer only gets half of an Orijen freeze dried treat in the morning when I go to work, and the other half at night when we go to bed. He gets nothing at all between meals. He gets 1 1/2 cups of food twice a day with a teaspoon of pumpkin and a teaspoon of Merrick wet food (my 17 year old dog has no teeth, so I always give him the wet food, but always shared a bit with Bowzer because he could smell the canned food). He does get medication with meals, so he gets a tiny piece of turkey to hide his pill am and pm as well as Actistatin (for his bad hips and joints) at meal time as well.

That's fine, especially if those treats are everyday. You will hear: "every dog / situation is different" often. What might cause one pup's glucose to soar might not affect another dog at all. Consistency is the key for most. Some of us weigh out the food with a standard food scale because measuring cups didn't seem to be repeatable enough for our pups.

When you get a chance, a 12 hour curve could be interesting. That's testing just before breakfast / morning injection, and then every two hours until the evening meal. That would give you an idea when his lowest glucose time is. Some vets say the lowest glucose reading will be half way between injections (6 hour point), but that isn't always correct. Some pups can get their lowest reading within just an hour or two after injection, others like my Annie have their lowest number around the 10th hour.

Craig

[jim maceri]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

The key is to keep EVERYTHING as consistent as you can….weighing food, same treats, same walks ect… also, work on one thing at a time. If you are playing with the insulin dose then keep the food the same. If you are working with the food don't change the insulin. You need to identify what the results are of any changes you are making and if you do more than one thing at a time you will never know which one made the BG change.

For us, Spirit can have strange "anomalies" a few days each month…for no reason he can run in the mid 200's all day long. The next day he can be between 100-250 which is what I shoot for. He can spike to 300+ and can fall below 100. I've stopped trying to figure out these "blips" and stick with the averages and trust that if he is eating, walking, acting normal ect.. that he is doing fine.

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Since I have been home testing, I have been keeping a chart. I test in the morning before insulin and breakfast (6am), then one hour after breakfast (7:30AM)then mid day (12:30) then before dinner and insulin (6PM) then again one hour after dinner (7:30pm) and then before bed. From the chart, the only consistency is the morning reading (250 range) and that is before food and insulin. And after that, he is pretty much all over the place (ranging from the low 200s to mid 300's), but then again as I was increasing new food, was decreasing old food, so I really have nothing to compare to that would be concrete. At this point, do you think going back to the old food just for some kind of consistency is the best thing to do. I am not even sure if that food is good for him. (Earthborn Holistic Grain Free Healthy Weight)

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

I understand that now, but I was just going on what my vet said to do. In four weeks she has had him from 13 to 19 units twice a day, and she told me to try a change in his food. Of course, she is not in the office until next week now, and so I have no idea what to do regarding his food and dosage right now. Should I gradually go back to the old food and the lower dosage. Bowzer shows no signs of not feeling good, not drinking water excessively and I do try to keep his walks regular (except for if it rains....anxiety to rain as well...oh boy!)

[jesse girl]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

you may never get true consistency with the anxiety issues . most times at least with jesse it will raise blood sugar .

the test before insulin (fasting) is important . the one an hour after may not give much info . for my jesse insulin doesn't start working (onset ) until 1.5 hours after shot so a test 2 hours after maybe more appropriate and if your up to it maybe at that mid point of 6 hours maybe helpful .

you do need a complete curve ( test at fasting then every 2 hours after to next fasting or longer some do 24 hours ) to make a judgement on dose

what you are doing is building up some information as to what may affect blood sugar and how to move forward . you want informed decisions then just rolling the dice on what to try next

if you feel your dog did better on the other food than you can switch back but you have to stick with something for a bit and test to see how things are going . what we look for early on is stable blood sugar ( no big swings of more than 200 points from low to high . excellent is 100 points or lower ) .

your pup is not in crisis at this point . physical symptoms are good and thats a positive sign . you would like a diet that is lower in fat but i do believe all fat is not made the same . my jesse has a partially raw diet with some beef fat in it and i think that is ok compared to a cooked type or processed fat chemically changed from cooking . of coarse that is just my opinion and what i have seen with my jesse .

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Thank you so much for your advice. I cannot test him two hours after he eats because I leave for work an hour after he eats. I do test him mid day when I come home for lunch.

[CraigM]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Maybe on a day off you could do a curve? We do the best we can and if you can't get a traditional (every 2 hour) curve done, then we do what we can. After awhile traditional curves might not be so important. When I curve my Annie (every several months now) I skip the +2 hour test because I know she always rises for the first couple of hours. I might do what I'd call an abbreviated curve: just before meal & injection, +4 hours, +8 hours, +10 hours, and again just before the next meal & injection. I can do this because after nearly 7 years I know her lowest reading is going to be around the +10 hour point (sometimes a little sooner, sometimes a little closer to the next meal time).

Something that might be interesting would be to test a few minutes before going for his walk, and then shortly after the walk. Some pups have a big swing during exercise. In fact, some feel the need to give a snack prior to, or during exercise to prevent a big drop. You wouldn't know unless you test.

Something else that I found interesting (I do find strange things interesting) is that if I gave Annie a new squeaky toy, or even a rawhide chew, her numbers can be pushed lower because she gets so excited. Then, more times than not, her numbers would be higher a few hours later. My theory is that the new toys excitement causes her to "use up" some insulin that lowers her numbers, then her body releases a bit of stored glucose that drives her numbers higher than normal. See how much fun this can become?!

Craig

[6K9S]

Re: Help/New to this glucose game

Here is a question....My vet only gave me the Novolin NPH. I just noticed that you use both R and N insulin. If my dog seems to be stable although high, if I am understanding this correctly, would you think he would need R and N as well. (R to drop his numbers and N to maintain his numbers?)