Zachary RIP July 9, 2014

[odff]

My 11 yr old diabetic dog has been recently diagnosed with Kidney disease.

Vet told us to feed him KD prescription diet. He liked it at first, but now refuses to eat it.

My sister recommended the RAW diet, he loved that at first, but now starting to turn his nose up at that too.

At my wits end trying to get him to eat.

Been on a roller coaster ride with the glucose levels too high to read one day, too low to read the next.

Open to ANY ideas from someone who’s been here before.

[Cara Sandler]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

I think LOTS of us have been where you are. I personally don't have any experience with kidney disease, just with diabetes. But my dog started refusing lots of foods after he was diagnosed with diabetes. I would definitely check with your vet, or maybe someone else here at the forum can chime in whether my suggestions are ok for a dog with kidney disease. Some of the things I tried were mixing yogurt, gravy, broth, or baby food with the regular food to get him to eat. I also tried Nutrisca brand grain free foods. I know that certain prescription diets are often recommended, but so many times the dogs won't eat them, and if your dog won't eat the food it's useless.

As far as his glucose levels go, how long has he been diabetic? How big is he? What type of insulin, and how much is he on? How long has he been on that dose?

I can tell you that until you can get him consistently eating, his glucose levels are going to be all over the place and nearly impossible to regulate, so really, the bottom line is finding something he'll eat. Sometimes what we can get them to eat isn't ideal for their medical condition, but they just have to eat.

[amydunn19]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

Welcome to you! Sorry you are having problems. You may not see as many replies due to the holiday, but maybe some members experienced with kidney disease can reply with some helpful advice.

First, how long has your dog been diabetic? Was he controlled well before the kidney disease? Is he taking any medications? It sounds like you are trying to check his blood sugar at home? If you have any recent curves you could post, that would help.

Have you addressed the lack of appetite with your vet? I am assuming that you are looking for a lower protein food, which I would think the Raw is not. Have you tried to look for some alternative dog foods? Dog Food advisor allows you to research the nutritional analysis of different brands and you can even search low protein and see if any come up.

[odff]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

thanks to both of you for such a quick reply.

Cara,Let me first say, I'm so sorry for your loss. It's heartbreaking to read you story.

I haven't tried gravy, etc. But just got back from the store & guess what I bought, chicken broth... Thought it was worth a try.

Zack has been diabetic for about 3 yrs now & was stable with 11 units humilin n twice a day. This eating issue started when he started throwing up then he was diagnosed with kidney disease. The dose has been recently adjusted because the switch in diet with same dose caused glucose to go dangerously low in the 40's. The dose is up and down depending on what i can get him to eat.
We just learned how & where to draw blood to test glucose at home. Have only been doing this the last couple days.

His BG was to high to read wed afternoon, borderline high, 189, thurs am. Vet said to give him 5 units even tho i told him i couldn't get him to eat. only got him to eat a couple baby carrots which he threw up @4pm, BG was too low to read then, gave him honey, sugar water... Finally got him to eat RAW @ 8pm, couple hrs later he started walking around like he was drunk (low sugar i assumed), gave him honey... check BG 1 hr later, to high to read!, gave 9 units. today 8am BG 35, 10am BG 80, 12pm finally ate (new canned food i just bought), BG 116 after eating, gave 5 units (i hope that was the right dose??), 2pm started stumbling around again, BG 172.

It's getting to be impossible to guess sugar level based on symptoms. i'm so confused.

I have discussed the appetite issue with the Vet & asked about feeding him the RAW diet before I started it & he said it's worth a try. Interesting to hear you mention a low protein diet.

I guess i;m pretty ignorant re: diet for diabetes...

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

Hello and welcome

briefly

your dogs food isnt meeting up with the insulin dose causing hypoglycemia low blood sugar

this is very dangerous

only give 1/4 of his dose when he doesnt eat
1/2 dose when he eats half his food

try feeding him something he will gobble up.

gotta run others wiil be here shortly

mo

[jesse girl]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

your testing now so you will be able to figure out an appropriate dose to give with how much food is consumed but it will take time

the more you test the more you will understand blood sugar and this maybe the new normal . many have done it

i switched my jesse to one meal a day because of digestive issues some give more than 2 meals . its what works for an individual pup and as consistent day in day out that you can which makes dosing much easier .

you do have to get out of these hypo events. to dangerous .

food can be a problem with the kidney issues but they have to eat but you dont want to put to much demand on them . you dont want to force it. eat what they can and dose for that . as mo said you can give a quarter of the dose if no food is given . i give jesse a milkbone every morning with a dose of insulin and thats it with very good results and her meal in the evening with another dose of insulin . there is some flexibility depending on the unique situation and challenges occurring with this disease.

will you be perfect with your decision every time probably not but you should be able to stay out of these low blood sugar event and intervene before they occur and testing will help with that .

[sherryandfred]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

thanks to both of you for such a quick reply.

Cara,Let me first say, I'm so sorry for your loss. It's heartbreaking to read you story.

I haven't tried gravy, etc. But just got back from the store & guess what I bought, chicken broth... Thought it was worth a try.

Zack has been diabetic for about 3 yrs now & was stable with 11 units humilin n twice a day. This eating issue started when he started throwing up then he was diagnosed with kidney disease. The dose has been recently adjusted because the switch in diet with same dose caused glucose to go dangerously low in the 40's. The dose is up and down depending on what i can get him to eat.
We just learned how & where to draw blood to test glucose at home. Have only been doing this the last couple days.

His BG was to high to read wed afternoon, borderline high, 189, thurs am. Vet said to give him 5 units even tho i told him i couldn't get him to eat. only got him to eat a couple baby carrots which he threw up @4pm, BG was too low to read then, gave him honey, sugar water... Finally got him to eat RAW @ 8pm, couple hrs later he started walking around like he was drunk (low sugar i assumed), gave him honey... check BG 1 hr later, to high to read!, gave 9 units. today 8am BG 35, 10am BG 80, 12pm finally ate (new canned food i just bought), BG 116 after eating, gave 5 units (i hope that was the right dose??), 2pm started stumbling around again, BG 172.

It's getting to be impossible to guess sugar level based on symptoms. i'm so confused.

I have discussed the appetite issue with the Vet & asked about feeding him the RAW diet before I started it & he said it's worth a try. Interesting to hear you mention a low protein diet.

I guess i;m pretty ignorant re: diet for diabetes...

How long had he been with the kidney problems? When Fred had his eating was the biggest problem and insulin became another...he was always very high I could never get him under control...not sure at this stage I would do raw because their system...isn't use to it..Fred Only lasted two weeks with his kidneys...hope you have better luck getting it under control...by reading what you say about his sugar it seems he isn't processing the insulin...does he pee more then normal? Fred would drink then pee it out and the insulin really never worked at this point...
I read a lot about and their diet they need to be on is high carb low protein which messes up the sugar levels...with yours the no eating is bringing him to low I would give a carb if possible anything bread rice what ever that will make him eat...even a little pasta.....apples sauce works well to if you need to get him up...I hope he does better...good luck...

[Cara Sandler]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

Thank you for the condolences about Sparky. He was a terrific little camper, and I figure I can keep his memory alive by continuing to contribute to the forum. He would have wanted that.

Based on the hypoglycemia you're seeing, I would definitely not give more than 1/4 of his regular insulin dose when he doesn't eat. But it's great that you're checking his glucose so you can make adjustments when necessary.

As far as re-regulating him, I think it's going to be hard until you can get him to eat something consistently. It's a tough situation when a diabetic dog is sick and not wanting to eat, because they HAVE to eat to get their regular dose of insulin. I would say that even though in a perfect world he would eat the food that is best for him, in the real world the dogs rarely want to do that. I'm definitely not a vet, but I would say that really, you just need to get something into him - anything. If he doesn't eat at all you have no shot at being able to control his diabetes.

And I wouldn't say that you're ignorant about diabetes. If you've never run into this scenario, there's no reason you would have known these details. The only reason some of the rest of us know is because our dogs have already been through it.

[runtotorun121]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

I'll be back later, but I have TONS of experience with kidney disease and diet, and I am sure other members here might say I mention, ad nauseum, that almost without fail ALL vets recommend KD, which kidney doggies will initially love and eat and then WITHOUT FAIL, ALL doggies will stop eating it. Yep, I am not a B&W thinker and realize I have said "all" a couple of times, but it is true.

I will be glad to talk more about options for kidney disease that will be fine for diabetic diet as well. I can also point to the absolutely most FABULOUS KD Diet group that is super active and can help you with all that stuff. The doggies there tend to have co-occurring disease processes, so it is not unlikely you will find kidney and glucose issue with others.

Anyway, keep heart because it is all manageable. Aside from the ALWAYS aversion to KD, which is when I began home-cooking, there is the whole appetite issue related to high numbers and nausea so there are some things to do about that.

We just got home and absolutely MUST take a nap before dark tonight. The toddlers will not make it without some rest, and Mommy will likely die if everyone doesn't nap, so I will check back later.

Kristie
& Snowball

[Cara Sandler]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

So happy that you jumped in, Kristie! I was hoping you would, but I know you have your hands very full these days!!!!!!

[odff]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

thanks so much to all of you for the input.
wish i had checked the forum again last night.

It's good to know 1/4 is not eating, 1/2 if some, etc. thx so much for that advice.

Zack's BG was 61 last night before eating & he did eat
but i assumed since it was low before he ate & he ate the same amt as earlier in the day, which brought his BG up 60 pts, maybe i shouldn't give him a dose. dumb idea!!!
His BG was too high to read @10:30am - even though it appeared that he threw up most of his dinner @ 5am. Gave him 9 units then as that was what the Vet said to do last time it was too high to read. He refuses to eat this morning, only got him to eat a sm treat. just checked again @12:30pm, it's 218. So the insulin is doing it's job.
Just not sure if we should wait & check in another hr or so???

[Cara Sandler]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time with Zack.

I think maybe you need to do a full 12 hour glucose curve to see how he's running all day. Right now with his food and glucose all over the place, I'm not really sure what to recommend.

And if my dog's glucose was only in the low 100s, I would not have given any insulin either.

You're doing a great job in a really tough situation.

[runtotorun121]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

Perhaps some others can give you some additional thoughts, here, but I would think you are okay to wait another two hours (You fed at 10:30am with off-the-charts BG, checked at 12:30pm, right?) because I wouldn't think the insulin would drop it to dangerous level within 2 hours since you are in the 200s right now; however, my experience is with a very s.m.a.l.l. dog so with you greater units of insulin I could not say for certain.

Until you begin to get a feel for how the numbers react to insulin I suppose I would err on the side of caution if your doggie is not pitching a fit about getting tested. I tend to overtest Snowball when something is looking different than his typical pattern. If at 1:30pm test things are not dropping tremendously from the last time then I would think you could go two hours.

P.S. Have you had any discussion with your vet about whether or not subQs might be helpful to bring down kidney values if they are high-ish? Some doggies' rock n' roll with ridiculously high numbers because their bodies accommodate, but others get terribly nauseated if their numbers are high. As another aside, sometime ulcers can provide a complication with kidney problems, and those can cause food aversion; however, Slippery Elm is amazing and will not harm anything at all. You can either get the powder or if you have limited options so there is no loose powder you can open a capsule and put it in a little bowl or cup. Add a bit of water, mix, mix, mix, and then syringe into the side pocket of the mouth so you can get him to swallow. That may help.

[odff]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

again thx for the quick response.

the problem is i can't get him to eat today, the food he loved yesterday, he turns his nose up at today. SSDD.
so all he's had to eat today are a couple sm treats.

I guess I will test again & see if the BG is still on a downward trend. he appears to be feeling better, but then he's so hard to read. think he's getting used to being all over the map with his sugar level.

what are subQs??

i will try the slippery elm idea, can't hurt...

[Cara Sandler]

Re: my diabetic dog won't eat

I hear you. I had a horrible time trying to get my dog to eat. I guess in hindsight, I had it "easy" because I was only dealing with diabetes. And I know the foods that are ideal for diabetes are not always appropriate for a dog with kidney disease, so I'm not sure what foods you should be trying to give him. I'm sorry. I wish I could be more help on that part of it.