New Automatic Injection Device

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Welcome Blind Dog Man,

I'll probably need to ask a few questions as we go to clarify what you need. I'm not sure what your vet means about the needles staying sharp. There are two versions of the AutoJect, one for syringes with permanently attached needles which most of us use and one for syringes with removable needles. The syringes with permanently attached needles are disposable, so they are only used one time then disposed of in a sharps container, so since it is only used once, the needle never has a chance to become dull.

Since you're using Caninsulin and I am not familiar with the action of it, I'm sure others will help out here. I see from the rcommendations I've found on the internet that Caninsulin is given once daily for dogs, depending on the weight, but that can be adjusted. Most of us use Humulin N which has a 12 hour duration and is given twice daily. We usually feed our dogs approximately equal amounts of food, 12 hours apart, once in the morning and once in the evening and give the injection after each feeding. This may eventually vary from dog to dog.

I gather from what I've read that you are using 0.5 ml syringes with 29 gauge 1/2" needles and it sounds like you're reusing the syringes and changing the needle each time. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am not clear on why you are doing it this way instead of using the disposable syringes with permanently attached needles.

More questions for you since we just need to be clear about what you are doing in order to make any good recommendations.

1. How much does Ollie weigh.
2. What are you feeding him.
3. How much are you feeding him and how often.
4. Are you giving Ollie any treats and if so, what kind of treats and how often?
5. Do you have any glucose level readings you can give us? Has the vet done a curve on Ollie. (A curve is when they do a reading every 2 hours for at least 12 hours so they can see how the insulin is affecting the glucose levels through the day.) If a curve has been done, can you post those numbers?
6. Are you doing blood testing at home yet and if not, would you be willing to try? Those of us that do test at home have found it invaluable in getting our dogs regulated.
7. You said you give one large injection daily. How much Caninsulin are you giving?
8. Where and how are you injecting Ollie at the moment.
9. Is Ollie a fairly calm dog? Is he fairly easy to work with?

I'm sure there will be more questions, but that will help us out to start with.

The more information you can give, the more and better information we can provide.

Since Ollie has been blind this long, I'm sure he's well adjusted to it by now. Many of us are just now having to deal with blindness in our dogs since diabetic dogs often develop cataracts, so you probably have a lot of good information and advice you can give us.

If you haven't had time to look yet, there is a lot of good information here including charts and videos dealing with all things regarding diabetic dogs, including giving injections.

I'll continue to try to help you, but I right now I think it would be beneficial if someone could move this thread so that it will be specific to Ollie and more people will see it.

Great to hear from you

Pat

[Justinking007]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi, I am new to using the Autoject 2 and was looking for guidance in the needle depth setting for my Rotty. I've had it set at about 7mm however he doesn't seem to be regulating. I've only been using since 1/4/17 and inject in the scruff on the neck. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi Justinking007;

This is a difficult question to answer since I don't have a lot of information, but I'll give it a shot. You may already know a lot of this and if so, just skip over it. Also, this will be lengthy, so I apologize.

1. My Rottweiler, Bailey, was a perfect diabetic patient. I found very little that upset him, or that he didn't tolerate. However, every dog is different, so what worked for Bailey won't necessarily work for other dogs. You can try my suggestions, ignore them if they don't work for you, or maybe you can adjust them so they do work for you or maybe they'll give you an idea to try something else. The important thing is to find what works for (#1) your dog and (#2) for you.

2. The scruff is easy, but not necessarily the best place to inject since the insulin isn't absorbed as well from the scruff as some other areas. On Bailey, I injected him once in the morning and once in the evening. I alternated sites so he wasn't getting injected in the same spot every time. I injected Right Flank, Left Flank, Right Belly, Left Belly.

3. I didn't have a specific depth number setting for the AutoJect. I chose to inject straight in instead of pinching a fold to inject in. For us, it worked better that way because there were two of us giving injections and it assured that it was given at the same depth each time. The way I found the right depth was by letting Bailey tell me what it was. I learned early that while I thought I was doing him a favor by using syringes with short needles, that he hated them and would cry every time I used them. I'm not sure why, but I gave most of the box I had left to my vet. So I used the Walmart Relion 3/10 syringes with a 29 gauge, 1/2" needle. They worked best for me because Bailey was very sensitive to changes and I could accurately adjust the insulin by 1/2 unit instead of 1 unit without trying to eyeball it. They also proved to be the easiest for me to eliminate air bubbles from.
I started by setting the needle depth at what I was sure to be a shallow depth and if he yelped and complained, I adjusted the needle depth by 1/4 turn in for more depth. When Bailey stopped complaining when I gave the injection I stopped and that was my depth. I checked the depth with the yellow depth gauge that comes with the AutoJect and made a note of it and also marked the depth on the depth adjuster in case I needed to reset it. If he still cried occasionally, I adjusted it in 1/4 more turn and that usually fixed it. Maybe not ideal by anyone else's standards, but it was a depth that I felt got far enough under the skin for good insulin delivery without going into the muscle and the guy getting stabbed didn't complain. Keep in mind that if you change to a different brand of syringe, you will have to check the depth adjustment because there is no standardization in syringe design and different brands will cause your needle depth to vary. That's where your depth gauge comes in handy.

I know this was a lot of words to tell you I don't know what depth setting works best, but even if I could give you a depth setting, it probably wouldn't work the same on your dog. Also a lot of words to tell you a lot of things you didn't ask about or probably care to know. I'm just trying to pass along some of what I learned over the 7 years I used it. If you have any more questions just ask and I'll try to be more helpful

Good Luck

Pat

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

One more thing you didn't ask, but I thought I'd pass along. Bailey never became perfectly regulated and based on my experience and what I've learned since, Rottweilers can be difficult to regulate. I finally settled on keeping him between 100 and 250. Sometimes he went lower and occasionally higher, but after about 3 years of driving myself crazy trying for perfection and stabbing him to check his glucose level three times a day. I decided to relax and not worry that much about it as long as I could keep him between 100 and 250 because that's the range he was happy in and I stopped torturing him, trying to keep him in a range that made me happy. In spite of the inability to achieve perfect regulation, he lived to be 11 years old which was older than some other Rotties who have shared our home.

[Justinking007]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi Pat, thanks so much for the detailed response and context. I'm just getting started on this journey and appreciate any and all info. I also inject straight in and my boy initially didn't notice the injection in the scruff but now gets a little jumpy and moves when the click goes off. I've not considered injection in the flank and it kind of scares me going straight in, thinking the needle will just go too far as there is much less tissue than the flank. I looked back at some of your pictures and it looks like you go between the last rib and hind leg? I want to continue straight in, could you provide your thoughts on best practices? Bailey sounds like a very special friend to you and I hope you've found peace knowing he is waiting for you. Thanks Pat, looking forward to your thoughts.

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hello again;
First, I'm not sure if you have seen a diagram of recommended injection sites on dogs, but I'll start with that. Here's the link to one. I'm sure there are others, but I like this one as it shows a lab which is close to the same size as a Rottie.

http://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/page.a...t=7001&id=7395

As I said, with each injection, I alternated between the Left Flank, Right Flank, Left Belly and Right Belly. Whether flank or belly, I usually would try to vary the site about one inch or so from the last, side to side and up and down, covering about a two to three inch square. I hope that makes sense. I didn't shave sites like some do. Rotties are much to beautiful to do that to. They are very large dogs and I'm pretty good at estimating, so I don't think you need to be so precise as to mark out exact dimensions. I just tried not to give them in exactly the same spot.
Unfortunately, over the years, Bailey did develop lumps on each flank and I stopped injecting him there and just used the Left and Right belly and chest. They have deep chests, so that's easy to do. The only problem I had was that he hated to be injected too close to either front shoulder and would let me know about it, so I had to stay farther back.

Over the years that I injected Bailey, I used a needle depth of about 3/16 to 1/4 inch, depending on what he tolerated. I don't know your dog, so I don't know how he reacts to different needle depths, such as being too shallow or too deep, or if he reacts at all. If you go too deep into a muscle, it's not going to do a lot of harm to your dog, it just takes takes longer for the insulin to work. Sometimes I would find myself pressing in too hard. You don't need to press too hard, just enough to depress the safety plunger. I keep saying he, but I don't know if yours is male or female.

Some dogs react more to the sound of the AutoJect than the actual injection. You can condition the response so he gets use to it. You can try cocking and triggering it several times when he is near, or while petting him, playing tug, or when he returns a ball you've thrown for him to catch or chase, like using a clicker. I also cut up small pieces of roasted chicken breast and cocked and triggered it every time I gave him a piece. I also gave him a little piece of chicken after each injection. Just be careful with your choice of treats so you aren't giving him something that will have an adverse reaction on his glucose level. He loved the chicken and it was just protein. It didn't take long and as soon as he heard me cock it, he would run in ready for his treat. I was eventually able to back off of the treats without him noticing. I also got a dehydrator and sliced thin pieces of chicken and beef and made jerky that didn't have any additives, or preservatives. Yes, I did tend to get carried away at times, but he was worth it.

I'm sure others will disagree with things I did, but you have to do what works for your dog and you. Watch your dog and he'll tell you what works and what doesn't and when he's too high, or too low. Learn the signs, read everything you can. Don't get married to one idea. Don't be afraid to try different things, even supplements you may have heard, or read about. Even though I was skeptical, I tried cinnamon tablets and was surprised when they seemed to help. Anything you screw up, you can fix. If he goes too high, don't give him more insulin because you'll end up on an insulin race with him bouncing up and down. Stick to your schedule and give him time and he'll come back down. If he goes too low and starts staggering, or has trouble getting up, keep a small jar of maple syrup handy and rub it on his gums and let him lick it off of your finger if he will. For some reason Bailey didn't seem to care for it, but it gives them a quick boost. Bailey would stagger like he was drunk and act confused.
I'm sure others will disagree with my methods, but in the end, you have to do what works for your dog, not what works for someone else's dog.

Now just some general information.
Everyone has their favorite food. I'm not fond of the Science Diet, or most other diabetic diets because (1) I don't like the ingredients in most of them
(2) Many vets really don't understand diabetes or nutrition and (3) I think most vets use them because it's profitable. Find one that works for your dog. I fed Bailey what he needed to stay around 100 pounds and divided it up into three feedings with the third smaller snack in the afternoon. I had to add an afternoon snack because otherwise his glucose levels would crater by the time it was time for his evening meal. I got a digital kitchen scale and weighed all of his feedings in grams, so they would always be consistent. Start with two feedings, morning and evening with the injections. Give the food first because if he doesn't feel good and doesn't eat, or vomits, then he has insulin on board with no food. Watch his exercise time. Rotties are very muscular and can burn up their insulin quickly. I'd play with Bailey for short periods and then let him rest and watch him to see if he acted hypo. Anything can change the glucose levels from exercise to changes in the weather, to reasons you'll never figure out. Depending on where you live, you may even have to make some changes from summer to winter. I use to worry about the time change for daylight savings, but I found that even with the change, sticking to the same times worked best and it didn't take long for him to adjust to the one hour change. His schedule will become your schedule and for 7 years, everything we did was planned around Bailey's feeding and injection schedule. If we had plans with friends, we met after his feedings, or left to get home when they were due and he was worth working it out. If your friends don't understand, they're not very good friends.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. Just hang in there. It's a lot of work and responsibility, but worth what you get back.

We had nothing but Rottweilers for 35 years and never had a mean one. We loved them all, but Bailey was the only one with diabetes and fortunately the sweetest. I do hope to see them all again sometime.

[jesse girl]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

well done pat you had a wonderful routine for bailey

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi jesse girl. Always great to hear from old friends.

[mrgregj]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hello, my dog Charlie was just diagnosed with diabetes last week and we are starting to struggle with his insulin injections. I have larger hands and trying to use the tiny syringes that came with the vetsulin is becoming cumbersome for the both of us.

I would like to try this device out, is there a specific model or place to purchase this? Does someone have a link to purchase it?

Thank you!

[MikeMurphy]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hello, my dog Charlie was just diagnosed with diabetes last week and we are starting to struggle with his insulin injections. I have larger hands and trying to use the tiny syringes that came with the vetsulin is becoming cumbersome for the both of us.

I would like to try this device out, is there a specific model or place to purchase this? Does someone have a link to purchase it?

Thank you!

Hi. I see you’re using Vetsulin, which would require a U40 injector. The only one I know of is the Vetpen... http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/AboutVetPen_Overview.aspx

I did a quick google search and couldn’t find a source where the starter kit is available. It seems popular in the UK. Maybe your vet could get one. The kit is pretty pricey at around $120.

[mrgregj]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi thanks for the quick reply. Sorry I was referring to the Autoject 2 device that Pat3332 was using on his dog Bailey. It looks like I can just use the u40 syringes I have with this device.

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi mrgregj. I got my AutoJect from Amazon. Here is the link to it.

https://smile.amazon.com/AUTOJECT-SE...5N0XAT03H5XR87

Some people prefer the Inject-Ease. I believe that it inserts the needle, but you still need push the plunger. Here is the link to that one.

https://smile.amazon.com/Ambimed-Inj...rds=injectease

Good luck. If you have any questions just let me know.

[mrgregj]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

Hi mrgregj. I got my AutoJect from Amazon. Here is the link to it.

https://smile.amazon.com/AUTOJECT-SE...5N0XAT03H5XR87

Some people prefer the Inject-Ease. I believe that it inserts the needle, but you still need push the plunger. Here is the link to that one.

https://smile.amazon.com/Ambimed-Inj...rds=injectease

Good luck. If you have any questions just let me know.

Thank you! This looks like such a great solution for those having trouble with injections. I feel like it should be more widely known.

[pat3332]

Re: New Automatic Injection Device

You just need to remember that using it is also a learning process and it takes a little work and experimentation to find what works best for your dog. You can either choose to inject normally by injecting into a fold of skin, or inject directly into the tissue. I chose to do it directly and had to experiment to find the right depth when injecting. Too shallow caused him pain and too deep wasn't as effective. Also remember that the noise from the spring when you trigger the device can also startle the dog until they get use to it. It's more important to find what works best for your dog than what works best for you.
Good luck