uncontrolled diabetic dog

[Shelly]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Yeah, I'm beginning to agree with you about the vet not getting it. The Lantus is supposed to be a stronger insulin, but she didn't seem to be doing well with the 5 units, so I increased it to 10 and then Wed. morning I gave her 12 and called the vet to let them no that she wasn't doing well with the 5 and told her that I gave her 12 and she was kind of angry with me that I would do that. So I thought I would go back to the 6 and she was acting kind of poppy so I thought I would try 8 tonight. But now that I sit here and type this, I think I might not be doing the right thing becuase now not only is her food not consistant but now her insuling isn't either. Oh dear!! I live in California, Inland Empire area.

[gail]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Shelly from what I have read consistency is very important. They should be on the same dose for a minimum of 5 days before any changes are made.(unless something really bad happens) Talk to the vet That is why they are there and what you pay them for. I really think they were just being conservative to start and then build up. I don't get the 2 shots a day, but you will have the answer tomorrow. I am going to sleep now. I live in Maryland and it is almost 11:00. I get up at 5am. Keep me posted. The phrase "misery loves company" really fits the members of this board. Gail

[Rudy]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Rudy's vet originally prescribed 6 units of NPH twice a day. As he was not responding well, I increased the dosage to 7 units which helped a little. I am also diabetic and was taking Lantis twice a day along with my Novolog 70/30 (similar to NPH) and after discussing Rudy's problems with my Endocrinologist, I decided to add 2.5 units of Lantis twice a day. Rudy showed great improvement after the addition of the Lantis. I never advised the Vet that I was injecting Rudy with Lantis, but on subsequent visits to the Vet, he said Rudy was doing fine and that I should continue doing what ever I was doing.

I am not recommending that you follow my lead, but wanted to give you my experience so you can discuss it with your Vet. I also wanted to bring out the fact that Lantis given twice a day works for some dogs as well as humans.

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Even though Shawna is on twice daily injections, I thought I'd address the two shots versus one shot question in general.

It is possible if a dog just plain refuses to eat breakfast to give insulin without food. Not anything like the first thing you try. You always try to get them to eat twice a day. And I would basically see home blood glucose testing as a requirement before attempting this. So you try like heck first to avoid having to do this.

Anywhere from a quarter to a half of a dog's insulin dose goes to their "basal" needs - the body's need for glucose when there's no food coming from the stomach from a meal. So it is possible to give a dog a small amount of insulin in the morning without food. You would check the blood sugar and start with a small amount of insulin - no more than 1/4 of the with-food dose. Test to see how that is handled and increase in very small increments over some number of days until the blood sugar is in the best range possible.

It's absolutely essential to home test because if a dog puts insulin to work very very quickly, the blood sugar could drop too sharply even though it's not too much insulin overall and send them into a hypoglycemic event, possibly a serious one. So the blood sugar must be monitored for lows, which you can't do with a urine test.

I only know of one or two people in six years who have had to resort to this type of regimen. Most of the time, eventually a dog who is not crazy about eating in the morning will get used to it and you will be able to feed a meal in the morning. Maybe a smaller one than dinner or with more enticements added to the food to encourage them.

It is absolutely essential... I can't overemphasize how important it is... for dogs on NPH to be getting two injections a day.

Lantus can be given once or twice a day. Probably best to start with once and monitor for how long the insulin lasts. But a small dose given twice a day isn't all that different than a large dose given once a day. They probably will overlap, generating more units in the system at one time.

So if a dog needs 10 units of Lantus once a day, you would get more or less the same effect *possibly* from giving 6 units of Lantus twice a day.

The thing with Lantus is sometimes it doesn't work at all, how long it lasts can vary wildly, and in some dogs it can generate a rollercoaster of highs and lows because it's not evenly absorbed (what our dog did). I very much prefer home blood glucose testing any time they use Lantus. I don't mean to dismiss it either. I know of one dog in particular who gets great blood sugar on it - Betty's Monk... I don't recall if he gets it once or twice a day.

Natalie

[Patty]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Monk gets insulin twice a day.

I want to clarify Lantus is not a stronger insulin. It is a U100 insulin just as NPH is with regard to concentration. However it is formulated to have a very different profile.

Lantus does say it can be used as a once daily insulin in humans, but most humans use it as a twice daily insulin since it often doesn't last the 24 hours.

I went through a trial with my dog on Lantus. This insulin lasted longer than 12 hours but no where near 24 and caused us a great deal of trouble trying to manage the overlap.

And I 'm not understanding when you say to match the food amount with the insulin amount.

Natalie previous link on the food/insulin race is a good illustration:
"If the insulin gets ahead of the food being digested and turned into glucose, your dog’s blood sugar can drop too far too fast. [This can happen if your dog is slow to digest her food and the insulin starts working before the food is converted to glucose in the blood stream or if there is more insulin than food available in the body. The insulin pulls what little glucose is present into the cells for nutrition, leaving nothing left to supply the brain and rest of the body. The blood sugar dips too low and coma/brain death can occur.]

If the food gets ahead of the insulin, your dog’s blood sugar can rise too far too fast. [This happens if the food is digested quickly before the insulin has a chance to absorb or if there's not enough insulin present.]

A dead heat is what you want - food and insulin being delivered in balance, giving your dog a steady supply of glucose in a good range throughout the day."

Does that help some?
Patty

[SierraBravo]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I am also feeding my 51lb. Samoyed Healthy Weight Beneful. It is the only dog food she will eat when she feels like eating. I spoke to the diabetic specialist at Purina and she said it was a good dog food to feed a diabetic because it was high in fiber. Gail

My lab has been diabetic for 3 years. I have been feeding him Beneful Healthy Weight along with 2oz ground meet at each meal. So - I'm really glad to hear that Beneful is recommended. He is also on Humalin N twice a day. However his glucose curve is an upside down U. It starts at around 120, goes up to almost 300, and then back down. The vet said it should be U shaped starting high and going low mid-day.

I wonder if it's becuase he digests the Beneful too fast and it beats the insulin into his system. Anyone else with this experience? I've asked the vet to order some presciption diabetic dog food, but it's $4 per pound - and labs are big dogs.

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

The manufacturer's word is probably not the best source of information on this question. Beneful's Healthy Weight probably is the best Beneful product for a diabetic dog as it's on the low end of their product line for fat. But Beneful products all seem to have sugar in them.

http://www.beneful.com/Dog-Food/Heal...ult.aspx#shown

Despite all those pictures of vegetables, there really aren't any vegetables in the food. And despite all the pictures of meat, there isn't much meat, even in the form of by-products. So a lot of deceptive advertising along with that sugar.

That said, I totally understand the financial constraints - reference my dog's potential MRI... The ideal would be to transition them to something healthier but it doesn't have to be the prescription food.

I don't know what the cost difference is but Science Diet sells Science Diet Lite, which is very similar to Science Diet WD, the prescription food. That's one alternative.

I guess in the end I encourage you to see if you can find a sugar-free food that is a bit healthier that they will eat and that you can afford.

Natalie

[gail]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Hi. Is your lab chewing up the Beneful? My sammie is swallowing alot of it whole. If she throws up it is coming back undigested. Has your dog gained or lost weight with this food? How much Humulin is he getting and how soon after meals are you giving shots? I have no answers to your specific questions because I am a newbie, but someone from the board will give you excellent suggestions. Gail

[gail]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Natalie, the lady at Purina was their diabetic specialist. She, her child and their dog are all diabetic. I was inquiring about their perscription food and she said the Beneful was good because it was 25% protein, 9.0 fiber and 7% fat. I told her that Shana ate that for years and loved it. She said to go back to it and see if it would stimulate her appetite. It seems to be working. I am mixing some Gerber Stage 2 turkey with it. I was thinking of switching (mixing Blue Buffalo with it but am not sure which one is best. She needs to gain weight. Do you like this food and which one would you recommend? How is Jack today? I told SierraBravo that you would give her some help. She(he) wrote that last post. Gail

[eileen]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Gail,

This may help you to better understand the listed ingredients in Beneful.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...uct=71&cat=all

There are other cost efficient commercial foods that are a much better choice. I wouldn't put much stock in what a Purina rep says about their own product.

[gail]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Eileen, thank you. I just printed the list of foods. Very helpful. Gail

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

What really worries me about these foods is the sugar comes before even the meat and bone meal and the tiny bit of vegies in it on the ingredient list... that's scary.

No wonder dogs love it! Our dog gets Natural Balance roll food cut into tiny pieces for training treats. It too has sugar in it (he's not diabetic) so it is VERY motivating for him. Sometimes too motivating! LOL

Blue Buffalo is getting great reviews here for blood sugar control so it would be a good choice. I haven't been buying it so I don't know how it compares cost-wise.

I think Purina has been trying to improve the Beneful some but the sugar really needs to go.

Natalie

[gail]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Natalie I am going to call Blue Buffalo and ask them which food they recommend for an underweight, picky diabetic. Thanks. Gail

[k9diabetes]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

I would concentrate on the willingness to eat it and on content that is good for a diabetic's blood sugar and not worry about the underweight.

If they will eat the food, getting them to gain weight is a matter of getting their insulin dose high enough that they can actually make use of the food. The weight management formulas are good for diabetics because of the fiber content. If the dog likes it, then you just have to feed enough for the weight to come back on once the insulin is at a high enough dose.

Until then, no matter what you feed them, the calories are washing out of the body unused when there's not enough insulin to go with it.

Natalie

[SeattleCraig]

Re: uncontrolled diabetic dog

Natalie I am going to call Blue Buffalo and ask them which food they recommend for an underweight, picky diabetic. Thanks. Gail

Hi Gail,

I'm having some great luck with BB's Longevity "Mature".

http://www.bluebuffalo.com/products/...ure-cans.shtml

Bob is very picky, and gets bored with the same thing every day. He's really into this brand/variety, though, and shows no sign of losing interest.

I know this is neither here nor there, but I like the looks of it, too. It just looks good.