Commercial dog foods for Diabetic

[sibhus]

Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

Hi all, i was curious if anyone whom has a diabetic dog is also suffering from arthritis and taking a NSAID antiinflammatory drug. My 11yr old diabetic husky has just started meloxicam/metacam after spending the last 4 months on glucosamine pills, adequan, fish oil, acupuncture, homeopathic pills which all have not really helped.

Thanks Kal

[amydunn19]

Re: Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

I want to say that several of the bigger dogs have taken metacam with no problem. Hopefully, some of them will chime in - holiday weekends can get kind of quiet around here.

Even a few have used steroids - it can be done but may require more insulin.

[momofdecker]

Re: Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

Hi all, i was curious if anyone whom has a diabetic dog is also suffering from arthritis and taking a NSAID antiinflammatory drug. My 11yr old diabetic husky has just started meloxicam/metacam after spending the last 4 months on glucosamine pills, adequan, fish oil, acupuncture, homeopathic pills which all have not really helped.

Thanks Kal

Welcome to the forum. My diabetic dog was on metacam for a very brief time. He had spinal compression and the hope was that it would provide enough inflammation relief to ease some of the mobility challenges he was having. Unfortunately for him, the metacam upset his tummy. Never to the point he vomited but there was a distinct change in his demeanor after he had a pill. After observing for a few days it was obvious to us the medication was not agreeing with him. Few things bothered my diabetic boy but the metacam was one of those things that did bother him. We saw a raise in blood glucose (bg) while he was on it but I believe it was because of the tummy discomfort it caused rather than the NSAID itself. We waited a week and tried prednisone, a steroid. That didn't upset his tummy and did provide enough inflammation relief that he was able to walk again. My senior (non-diabetic) dog has been on metacam daily for about a year now. He's 14 and it addresses arthritis pain for him. His tummy can handle it no problem.

When my diabetic boy started having mobility problems we took him to a neurologist to find out why. He was sent home with gabapentin to address some pain. After a couple of doses we had to lower his insuiln - leading us to believe the gabapentin was providing some pain relief.

Many things can impact bg in diabetic dogs. Pain is one of those things that can cause a raise in bg. If a NSAID addresses the pain you may see a need to decrease the insulin. If the NSAID causes discomfort else where (tummy troubles) you may see an increase. Many on here say every dog is different and every dog writes their own diabetes story. You know your pup best - hopefully the metacam helps provide some pain relief.

[sibhus]

Re: Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

Thanks for the responses. I just started meloxicam 2 days ago, and so far, i have not seen any bg change. My biggest fear is the horror stories about nsaids but i have run out of choices as I've tried everything. I had tried gabapentin as my vet thought there maybe some neuropathy at play but it didn't help and actually caused a rise in her bgs. So right now I'm doing meloxicam at half dose to play it safe and supplementing it with tramadol and her bgs seem unaffected.

I had thought maybe high sugars from diabetes made it harder to treat arthritis as it compounds inflammation but my dog also has high liver enzymes due to her gallbladder which is complicating things at present.

[Grayson]

Re: Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

We use Novox, which is a generic of Rimadyl. It's just as effective, but cheaper by far - especially if you use an online pharmacy. National Animal Hospital has the best price right now (the biggest name site you'll see commercials for is NOT the greatest on pricing). Most vets will want to do an NSAID panel on a regular basis, just for safety to watch for any changes in blood work. We've had nothing but success with the Novox - pain relief at a MUCH lower cost than buying from the vet. BTW...it is required for a vet to issue a script to be filled at the place of your choice, if it is for a drug they would be willing to supply you from their own pharmacy stock. Another way to trim cost is to get the higher strength tablets and break in half - but this only works for smaller dogs that take less than the maximum 100mg dosage. Grayson is a big boy, so he needs the full 100mg twice a day. You can have them contact your vet for direct script approval by phone or fax, so it makes ordering pretty easy too. To avoid potential stomach problems, we just give with his meals...

[k9diabetes]

Re: Anyone doing NSAID with a diabetic dog

Our diabetic dog Chris was on daily Metacam for years - never caused any problems with his diabetes - in fact it probably helped by controlling inflammation.

With NSAIDs, usually if there is going to be a reaction to the NSAID itself, it occurs right away. They either tolerate it fine or they get sick immediately. So if she's been on it for a couple of weeks, she is likely to be tolerating it well.

Our current dog, nondiabetic, also has been on daily Metacam for years with no ill reaction. He has some kind of pain in his back right hip.

We did use the official Metacam for dogs rather than buying the human version. Not sure if that makes a difference.

Natalie

[sibhus]

New owner with question about one time feeding

I was on this forum 5 years ago and ironically am back as my 7 yr old husky rescue has been diagnosed with diabetes and possibly cushings(high alp of 650).

So far he has responsed well in the last 3 days to Insulin and am able to control him between 300-150 in the morning but 400 to 250 in the evening swing. I know I have a ways to go to get the dosing correct and have to thank so many people who share their knowledge on this forum as ive been reading so many back posts to get back up to speed on diabetes in dogs.

The issue I have is my dog is a one time eater and eats pretty much his whole meal in the evening, although he gets a chicken treat around lunch as he approaches his nadir.

Currently I am using Novolin N and using 9 units in the morning and 27 in the evening on a 86 lb husky(overweight by 20lbs), my question is since he is a one time eater, would it make sense to try the Novolin 70/30 at night only since he eats a large portion which starts a sharp spike.

Thanks Kal

[jesse girl]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

My jesse only eats one meal a day . She is a 26 pound beagle . I give her 3 units at 7:30 am with a milk bone snack . At 5:30 pm she gets her only meal and 3 units . At 7:30 pm she gets her final dose for the day which is 3 units and another milk bone snack . Jesse uses NPH insulin . I come to find out that I had to give her a carby snack with insulin to level out her numbers . It worked ok with out but the swings were higher

Now if you wanted to compare my jesse to your dog based on weight and maybe a similar dosing . The 9 units sounds about right without food the 27 would be about 10 units higher as what jesse gets with food . Now that maybe comparing apples to oranges but its possible you could be giving to much insulin . another problem cushing dogs need allot more insulin but you are not showing that with the 9 units and responding well to that

You do have to do some curves at night to see whats going on if you haven't . I did quite a few during jesses regulation process . Lots of low sleep nights but worth it as we got to where we wanted her to be . Her regulation varies from 100 to 250 . Sometimes a bit higher and lower on occasion

Now if you are seeing a spike after food and insulin then an insulin like R could be helpful but I would buy it separately and not combined in 70/30 . Gives more flexibility on dosing . I have used a fast acting insulin on jesse at times so I do have some experience . I only use it to correct higher sugar and not as a preemptive spike in sugar ( Never could depend on the spike to make it part of her daily routine ) . If you dont have a spike after meal an insulin it may not be productive . My philosophy is most dogs dont need it but its helpful for some

Recommend sighing up with our sister site k9 cushings as you dont want to have a false diagnosis of cushings and go on medication and like a I said I dont see it in the numbers you posted

[Raysaint]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Currently, what are his morning fasting sugar levels?

That might give you an idea if overnight period is working out as is.
It's normal to have a spike after eating, not sure I'd be trying to really correct it if it's not too high. A lot of dogs have a bowl type curve using Novolin, spike after meals, thena progressive drop, then a slight climb back up.

If you change insulin, you'll have to keep an eye on things as you don't want lows while you're sleeping.

Sidenote, my dog used to eat once a day at supper, then I split it into equal portions morning and supper. He adapted. It works better for him. It's not essential, just if you think it would give him better overall sugars each 24 hours.

[sibhus]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Thanks for the responses. Im just 48 hours into it with insulin so dont have enough information yet but have been doing checks every 4 hours over the past two days. I just realized my wife had been giving him a purina roll chew which has sugar on the ingredients for the past two nights, so it could have caused the spike.

In my case since my dog is currently at 87 lbs/40 kg, he supposedly requires 20u every two hours if you go by the recommened dosing of 0.5 kg but if a dog is to eat a large portion only in the evening, wouldnt the dosing be around 75% or 30u for the evening shot?

Thanks again Kal

[jesse girl]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Not sure if your logic can be applied to your method . We think food is all tell all with blood sugar . Half is actually produced by the body and with dogs that could even be more with the lack of digestible carbs in their diet

So a starting dose for your dogs weight is 17.5 units . I would not deviate from that even though its a larger meal . Now what I have determined you can give a quarter of the normal dose of insulin without food . That would be 4.5 units and a reasonable starting dose without food

Now my jesse ended up with a dose of half the amount of insulin of the dose with the one meal which is 3 units . So the 9 units that you are giving is a respectable amount but could be above what is needed because you started at the top end of dosing for no food . The 6 units my jesse gets with food is slightly lower than a normal starting dose for her weight to give you some perspective where she ended up .

Now if you give a dose more than the body needs you will have a difficult time . Evidence of that maybe big swings in sugar and you may see some lethargy . Now if you see further decline in the numbers ( maybe larger swings ) with raising the dose that may further point to to much insulin

Now you could return to a more conservative starting dose of 4.5 units without food and 18 units with . That would probably be the low end of dosing . Do proper curves to determine the direction on dosing . Its up to you how you want to proceed but I would probably lower the dose especially the 27 units . I would probably stay away from r insulin being this new to the process . Usually it takes months to regulate a dog . 6 months for my pup .

With your dogs good response to insulin it is less likely your dog has cushings as cushing dogs are more likely to be resistant to insulin

Maybe you could have got lucky and close to the amount of insulin needed but its hard to say . What we say on the forum most dogs take their own path with the disease and its hard to compare or even apply logic . Most times it takes testing and complete curves to know the correct direction .

[sibhus]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Thanks very much Jesse girl, I see your point. As im just 48 hours into using insulin, my dog was at 480bg out of the vets office and I had overcompensated to bring it down. But ill take your advice and hopefully get the dosing correct and reduce it for now.

[Raysaint]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Trying to overdose to compensate isn't the way to go. It takes at least a week for a dog's body to adjust and settle in to a new dose. That's why it's recommended to stay consistent with a dose, do a curve, then adjust the dose for a week, another curve, adjust, repeat.
Dogs can handle high sugars for a while.

It's not like human diabetes in that you can play with insulin dose all the time, and even with humans, you only do that with a fast acting insulin. Not something that usually works with dogs.
It's staying consistent and methodical.
With Novolin, it's 0.5 units per kg as a starting dose, if feeding twice a day. That'll have to be adjusted for once a day; Jesse has experience with that.

Keep the treats to a minimum right now, and keep it to protein type, dehydrated chicken or like that. No carb treats while you attempt to determine his sugar patterns right now.

Stay the course, don't get focused on numbers (the mistake I made) and it'll slowly start to regulate. Took me almost 2 years.

[sibhus]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

Raysaint, thanks so much for the advice and I see the mistake I made. I was just stressed out when the bg numbers hovered over 400 and wanted to keep him under 300.

Point taken on the protein treats as that has been a problem all through his life in which we fed him sugar based treats.

One last question I had is that currently I am giving him 1.5 cups of Blue Buffalo Senior chicken dry and one canned version of this. Im dealing with a picky eater and hoping this is ideal as I don't want to switch to the Science diet stuff. I don't know what to believe online as to what is best for diabetic dogs, and couldn't find a food post on this forum as to what others are using.

Thanks again for your help, Kal

[jesse girl]

Re: New owner with question about one time feeding

We have seen dogs on many different diets from prescription to high and low end commercial diets and homemade . My jesse has been on a homemade diet for her ten years of being diabetic

If you already have a picky eater than the prescription diets maybe a struggle

Now i am not in full agreement with raysaint on carby treats and food . That is what has worked with jesses dose without insulin . She gets a type of milk bone with molasses in it . What it did for jesse is level out the range of her numbers during that period of the day . Without she would have larger swings in blood sugar . My theory is the injected insulin we use in dogs is to strong so insulin needs to be fed faster . Now if you completely go low gyciemic it just takes to long for that to produce sugar for the insulin to be fed and if not regulation could be a struggle Their digestive system is very different from ours and it appears they process insulin faster than us , Actually the prescription diets are more carby in nature and most dont understand why they work but they do have a good track record

Its a lesson I learned early in jesse diagnosis . I would giver her honey to slow down a big drop and it flattened her curve and that was an oh moment .
So dont get so hung up on low glycemic and you may want to experiment with higher glycemic options and see how your dog responds . What you want to do is flatten the the curve . Similar expression we use for the virus and another is test test test . the more you do that early the more ahead of the game you will be .

Ask as many questions as you would like