New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

[kaysha]

Hello I am new here and would like some help please. I am from the UK and my dog Kayla has been diagnosed diabetic two weeks ago, i am fine with the jabs and the insulin the help I need is regarding her blood glucose levels, during the afternoon around 7 hours after her insulin shot in the morning she is coming down to 5-6 on the blood monitor (these are UK readings) but Kayla still has around another 4 hours before her evening meal and next shot of insulin, it is really scaring me because I am terrified in case she comes down too low.

I called my vet when she got down to 5 and he said to feed her and not give her insulin that night, but surely this is defeating the object? I know most of the time you feed twice a day morning and night, but Kayla has never gone 12 hours between eating before (she is 7 years old) I don't want her to be low and stop insulin on the evening like the vet said so would it be better to feed her food allowance three times a day to stop the lows? Or would I be doing the wrong thing? I have seen different vets in the practice and they all seem to be telling me different things so now I have no clue which way to go?

The vet has brought down her insulin dose from 11 units down to 9 units and now down to 8 units but around 3 - 4 pm Kayla is having these lower readings and I feed her at 7.30 pm so it bothers me that she will come down really low during the 3- 4 hours before she has her evening meal. Please can someone help me i really don't know how low is low or what to do.
Thank you so very much

[jesse girl]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

hi and welcome

the reading of 5 which would be 90 for usa ( multiply your number by 18 to get usa number ) is not low blood sugar . now its maybe a bit to low that you are comfortable with and this early into the diagnosis .

first and foremost you want to get to a dose of insulin that brings the numbers up to a level you are comfortable with maybe keep all numbers above 6 or higher and continue to reduce the dose to accomplish that goal and once you find that dose that keeps the numbers a bit higher than hold for a week or two and if the numbers a bit elevated you can slowly raise the dose maybe a half unit at a time and giving a new dose a week to settle until you get to a level you are comfortable with . as time and understanding goes by you do get more comfortable with the process becoming a new normal

now you are just giving the lower side of the equation and not what blood sugar is doing for the rest of the day . that would be helpful for the forum to know to get a better idea of what is occurring

its possible that 7 hours after shot is when lowest blood sugar occurs so you would like to identify that which can be helpful on what to do . say if you see that lower number and its at the time of lowest blood sugar you may not need to do anything because the numbers will start going up on there own

it sounds like your testing blood sugar at home and that will help with the process and keep your pup safe . it seems a hypoglycemic event is fairly rare unless the dose is way to much , other medical challenges or medication and allot of exercise during active insulin . now you do not want to become complacent it is a serious risk

its possible your pup may need an added meal or snack in the day that may also include a possible midnight snack because the 12 hour cycles can mirror each other. so whats done in the day may have to be done at night . its a process every dog is different and treatment can be a bit all over the place as you have seen with different vets and opinions . its developing your dogs story on how to proceed. what may work for one dog may not for another

if you stick with the simple protocols raising a dose slowly in small increments most times not more than a unit maybe larger in a bigger dog and smaller for a tiny dog . starting dose is based on weight multiplied by .2 . this is a general place to start insulin at but some dogs like my jesse needed less than her normal starting dose that's possibly do to her diet which is low glycemic

your doing great seeing some good number early into the diagnosis maybe a bit low this early into it and that can be adjusted . in a few months things maybe have reached that new normal that all will be comfortable with and your pup can lead a normal dogs life with some limitations

[Eddie]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

Hello and welcome from another UK member!

As Jesse Girl says it all depends on what happens in the next few hours after the reading of 5. Our dog carries on going down from that point and has exercise later in the day so we test him around 8 hours after breakfast and see how he's doing.

Is it possible for you to test a bit later in the day and see if your dog goes up or down as it gets nearer to the next meal?

If our dog is 5 or lower I usually give him a small handful of food plus some honey if he is below 4. This usually gets him back on track then we feed and inject normally around 7pm.

We know this works for our dog because we know his usual trends. It might be completely different for another dog which is why testing is so useful.

What sort of meter are you using? Some of the human ones are not quite accurate on dog blood so there may be more leeway than it seems. It might help to check it against the vet's meter.

What weight is Kayla? Is she having Caninsulin?

The insulin doses seem to have been quite varied if she is only two weeks into the diagnosis so you probably need to try to find a dose that you can settle on and see what her overall trends are.

Antonia

[amydunn19]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I would recommend doing a glucose curve at home. Just start with a test at fasting in the morning and test every two hours until your evening meal/shot. This will show what is happening and when and might give an idea of what to do next. Try to do this on a normal day with no guests or excitement. Try to stick with schedule as closely as possible.

The number is not bad but when you think about her going any lower, that would be frightening.

My dog, Maggie is on a different schedule than many diabetic dogs but this was decided after much testing and taking her other conditions into account. She eats 2 larger meals and 2 smaller meals. It is not more food or calories - just more evenly spaced through the day. It doesn't work for every dog but it works for us. It probably would be best to continue with two meals, do some curves and then evaluate if she might benefit from more food.

Maggie has had some really low numbers but it is quite rare for me to skip her dose completely. I might reduce it some but not completely skip it. If you skip it, the body is in turmoil and she goes sky high. You might cut it in half or more but if she eats her entire meal, I would give some insulin.

Her dose may be too high but until you do some curves, you won't know this. Be sure to post your curves and we can help you take a look.

[kaysha]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

Hello thank you all so very much for your replies I so appreciate it. I am actually going to do a blood curve test on Tuesday this coming week the vet said to do it that day and then go see him on Wednesday which is what I am going to do, they did try doing it at the vet they kept Kayla in all day but she got so stressed out they couldn't get a proper curve and she ended up snapping at the vet.

Kayla was hurt a few years ago by a pack of four dogs and she has never forgotten it so now she is terrified of all dogs so a day in the vet would have been her worst nightmare she got so stressed the vet would never get a proper reading so this is why they said to settle her for a few days and for me to do the test ~ I will of course let you know what the numbers are that way hopefully you can help me with it?

Over the past few days this is how her numbers are going, I am hoping if I post them here someone may be able to tell me if these are normal for a newly diagnosed doggie?

Ok then the last two days have gone like this (these are UK numbers)

morning before breakfast she was 21 I fed her at 7.30 am and insulin 8 units at 8am
At 2pm she was 7.4 at 4pm she was 5.8 which I thought was a little low so I gave her a small carrot (she loves carrots!) at 5pm Kayla was 7.1 and at 7.30pm just before her dinner she was 11.8 she had her dinner and I gave her 8 units of insulin and she was fine during the night. This morning when I checked her before breakfast she was high at 27.1. I have checked her at 4pm today and she is 5.5 but she still has 3 and a half hours until her dinner.

This is what scares me as I am terrified she will drop too low before her evening meal so how low is too low? In other words when do I totally freak out!! My vet hasn't given me any advice about dropping the units when Kayla reaches a certain number all he says is give her 8 units twice a day.

Kayla has never gone 12 hours between food before this she was a free feeder her biscuits were left down all day for her to munch when she wanted now of course when I give her her shot her bowl is removed and doesn't go back down until her dinner. I know it is very early days and I know she will be up and down for a while until she is more stabilized.

I am not sure if this is important or not but Kayla became diabetic after her last season she had an emergency spay 5 weeks ago and the vet has said she may return to her none diabetic state it apparently can take 8-10 weeks after a spay for her body to try and turn around but in my heart of hearts I am not convinced she is going to turn around.

So do these numbers make any sense is what she is doing normal? Is in the 5's too low with three hours or so to go before her dinner?
I know I should be more confident I am actually diabetic myself! But I know how I feel if I am going low, my babygirl can't say 'mommy I don't feel so good'!! I am so sorry for such a long reply but I wanted to try and get all my worries down!
Thank you to everyone who has replied to me I really am very grateful to you all x

[jesse girl]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

it looks like the 8 units maybe to much . i have seen this with my jesse starting with a lower fasting and a full dose of insulin we will see a big spike in blood sugar shortly after shot and food . you would automatically think it was just a food spike but it mostly happens at lower numbers and the lower the numbers the more dramatic the spike . i believe this is how the body tries to balance injected insulin with stored glucose (sugar )

you are seeing some larger swings in blood sugar which may still point to the dose being to much and adding to the equation of the possibility of gestational diabetes which may have been corrected with the spay . i would continue to lower the dose . i might reduce one unit do a curve or enough tests to establish the trend is improving with each reduction and maybe evaluate every 3 days . i know allot of testing but we have seen spay females return to normal quite quickly after the procedure

[kaysha]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

Thank you so much Jesse girl do you think Kayla could still turn around now she has been spayed? She is five weeks post op now and my vet said it can take around 8 - 10 weeks but I can't find much on the internet about this. Kayla seems to be high in the mornings but then low and maybe too low in the afternoon. I am using a human monitor but it has been calibrated to the animal one they use in the vet so I am confident the readings are correct. If Kayla doesn't turn around I will purchase an animal meter but I wanted to see if she does turn around before doing that.

Something else I have noticed with Kayla is when she has her shot of insulin she literally goes off on one charging round the garden playing! She seems to have a mad ten mins charging around! Is this normal? She is so funny to watch and she is seriously happy but I just wanted to check this is normal or is it a Kayla thing!

Also (so sorry for all the questions!) where else can I take blood from to test the reason I ask is her ears look sore with all the testing, she doesn't seem to bothered about them if I am honest she hates the click of the clicker thing for the lancet but she does seem ok with it, but it would be handy to know where else I can take a small blood sample on her in case her ears do get too sore further down the track?
Thank you so much for helping me i really appreciate it

[Eddie]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I don't know about the spaying question but on the other things - no, our dog doesn't get energised after his insulin; he usually wanders off to his bed for an after-dinner snooze! I shouldn't think it is anything to worry about though I don't recall anyone else saying their dog did this.

On where to test, it depends a bit on how big your dog is. Lots of people on here use the inner lip, which I thought sounded horrible for some reason. I tried nearly everywhere else (pads, ears, carpal pad, callous on elbow) then eventually tried the lip and found it was just so much easier than all the other places.
To use the lip you just need to curl their upper lip up so it is exposed, dry it with a bit of tissue then lance it as you have been doing. If you can keep the skin quite taut it is easier to get a bead of blood. It doesn't seem to hurt our dog. In fact if I say I'm going to test him he comes and sits by me pawing at me till I do it, because he loves the treat he gets afterwards.
On smaller dogs some people shave the hair off a patch by their tail and use that. There are videos on this site of people testing in various different places.
You're doing really well to have such a grip on testing at such an early stage - it took me a lot longer to get it sorted out!
Antonia

[jesse girl]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

antonia gives some good alternatives for testing . we use jesse inner lips also . she gives me a kiss after i test her . such a funny dog

i did see this energizer bunny thing early into jesses diagnosis . insulin usually takes about 1.5 hours to start working . maybe they know this will make them feel better and they just excited about that . its maybe as simple as the attention she gets from getting food and a shot

hard to say if it was just the hormones . i think a continued reduction to explore that possibility maybe needed to give the body a chance to use the bodies own produced insulin if that is still occurring . if you just see higher numbers you pup maybe diabetic but thats ok . a diabetic dog has just as good a life as any other dog maybe better in some respects with the added attention . structure and routine

we get something out of it also a closeness with our pup we may not have had before . the bonding gets quite close for both parties . remember dogs dont want us to feel sorry for them .

[kaysha]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

Thank you both very much for replying Kayla is a border collie cross lurcher so she is quite tall (all legs!!) her weight is 35 kg and as the vet described her slightly chubby! I to have tried various places like you said the only place I didn't is the lip for some reason I thought that would really hurt her, but from what you said it seems they are not bothered by it so I may give that a try for some reason I was thinking would I like my lip to suddenly have a quick sharp point go in it and I thought no!! But I guess our doggies are made of tough stuff so that is a high possibility to try.

What treats do you give your dog after he has his shot? I am using a normal brand of dog treats and Kayla get two small ones after each shot but I am wondering if I should try a different option as I have no idea if these little treats contain sugar or not?

Something I did notice yesterday and I think I have sussed out this blood curve test now I am not totally sure but I think I have! When Kayla went low or what I thought was low in the 5 -6 region yesterday I decided not to panic and give her a carrot to bring her 'up' again I thought chill, relax so I left it an hour and tested her again and to my total surprise she had gone up! I even asked my husband and my son 'have you given Kayla anything'!!
Which of course they hadn't but she came up to a more acceptable level which would mean when it came to her dinner she wouldn't be as high because I didn't panic and give her the carrot so I think it is me who needs to chill as Kayla seems totally chilled about all of this!

This morning I have to take her to the vet as I came down this morning to a little accident on the kitchen floor which is not like her and there was a small amount of blood in it so I am thinking she may have a water infection so off to the vet we are going!

I am not sure if the spaying is going to turn her around but to be honest if it does then that is fantastic if it doesn't then it is what it is and I know she will lead a good life and whatever it takes she will get, she is my baby and I love her so very much I know we will become even closer which is a good thing.

Do your dogs come up again after that low is that normal because I know for sure she hadn't eaten anything so is this the curve that I am doing on Tuesday is this what happens, the vet wants me to do it on Tuesday and not before for some reason I am unsure why that is? If Kayla goes on to antibiotics for a water infection will this affect the curve results?

[Eddie]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I hated the thought of the lip as well. It just seems so soft and defenceless - but it works really well and I think he really hardly feels it. I'd strongly suggest you give it a go. Just make sure she doesn't lick the spot or the blood just smears and you have to start again!

For treats we use Davies Puffed Jerky - you can get big boxes from Amazon or small bags from pet shops. I think it is mainly protein. We chop it up into small pieces (about an inch square) and they all love it. it smells horrible though..... I suspect that with a bigger dog you have more latitude to give the odd treat without it producing an big change in blood sugar. We also use rawhide flat chew strips for Eddie to distract him from chewing his paws (a whole separate problem!) and they don't seem to alter anything, again being mainly protein.

I think the "textbook" curve is usually shown as a "bowl" shape ie it goes down with the insulin then rises again towards the next meal. Eddie hasn't read the textbook because he goes up after a meal for a few hours then drops down towards the next meal ie his is a "mountain" shape curve. It doesn't really matter so long as you know what your dog does, and even then they won't always do the same thing....
It sounds as if Kayla has a bowl shaped curve but it is a good idea to keep testing as you have been doing for a bit just to check she isn't on a downward slide.

Eddie has been on antibiotics at intervals through the last two years while he has had diabetes and they don't seem to have affected his blood sugar levels.

Antonia

[k9diabetes]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I have seen a few dogs whose diabetes resolved with a spay, but most of them have not. The ones who did tended to have high blood sugar only while actually in season and then went back to normal blood sugar in between.

So the most likely outcome is that she will remain diabetic.

Well, I guess it was good that she relieved herself on the floor where you could see the blood - glad she's going straight to the vet. A urinary tract infection is pretty common when the blood sugar is still high.

As far as the low blood sugar, whether it would come back up on its own depends on when it occurs in the insulin/food absorption process. You might have caught the blood sugar at what was naturally its lowest point and it was going to come back up again even without the snack.

Once you have done some curves, you will know what time of day her blood sugar is likely to be at its lowest point. It varies from dog to dog depending on how quickly they absorb the insulin and digest the food and get sugar from it into the bloodstream.

Let us know how the vet appointment went.

Natalie

[kaysha]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

Well Kayla did in fact have a urinary tract infection and the vet gave her a pain relief jab and sent me home with antibiotics for two weeks and some liquid pain relief to put in her breakfast, we are a couple of days in to treatment now and she is back to her normal silly self! I did notice when testing her that when Kayla has an infection her glucose levels do in fact increase she was coming down nicely in the mornings before breakfast but when the infection started she was creeping up into the middle 20's around 25 - 28 now the infection is starting to go or at least be controlled she is now around 18 or 19 which i know is still high but we are still very early days into treatment and knowing what units to give her, right now she is on 8 units. I am doing the blood curve tomorrow and we have an appointment to see the vet on Thursday so he can see the curve so I am not sure what he will do or say as this is the first blood curve I have done.

The second for Kayla as she had the first one done at the vet but it wasn't successful she stressed out so much the vet couldn't get a proper reading so hopefully tomorrow as she will be home with me and in her normal surrounding it will go much better and we can actually get the test done and find out how things are going.

I will look into the treats you mentioned I haven't heard of them before i am in England so used to all the package doggie treats that are no good for my baby now! So I will have a look on Ebay and Amazon and see if I can find them. I know the treats I am using right now maybe not be the best for her but they are the only ones we have here, I only give her two and they are very small and she only gets them if she is a good girl after having her injection! She has got so good at this that she sits still while I inject her and then as soon as I say good girl she jumps up to find her treat in the box on the side in the kitchen!!

If anyone else has some more ideas on treats please would you let me know I want to give her something that will be good for her and not upset her levels. Do you give these as a treat only for example after giving your dog there in injection or do you allow them once a day or however you do this? Kayla is finding it so hard not having a treat, as before we would always give her something during the day but now we are all trying to hide when we eat as we feel so guilty eating when she doesn't! So any help on treats and feeding I would so appreciate it.

Thank you so much everyone it is so nice to be able to ask things and get answers from others in the same position I know I will get the hang of all this and maybe then I can help another new comer and give advice!

[Cara Sandler]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I used to give Sparky raw green beans or canned asparagus as snacks. He loved them and they didn't affect his blood sugar at all.

[CraigM]

Re: New my dog kayla been diagnosed 2 weeks

I don't normally give between meal treats other than a frozen green bean, but I do give a small "normal" puppy treat right after her meal and injection. I just figure the normal style treat as a part of her meal since I give it after both meals, every day.

She will certainly remind me if I ever forget, or don't give the "dessert" quickly enough!


Craig


ps. There have been a few times when I've run out of the normal treats and I just give Annie 5-6 pieces of her kibble as the treat! I don't think she really realized that I swapped her standard kibble for her treasured treat :-)