Sweet Sable is an angel... July 23, 2015

[ravenecw]

Hi, on March 23 my dog was diagnosed with diabetes. I give her 6 units of vetsulin 2 times a day and she seems to have responded very well. My vet wants to do the blood curve now and I asked if I could do it at home instead as my dog is very very nervous at the vet (plus I could do 12 hours plus if needed and the vet can only do about 8 hours).

I have a monitor (human monitor) so i'm not sure how the numbers will compare but when I took her to the vet this last time it showed 218 aprox. 1.5hrs before her next shot (she was above 500 when I took her in and she was diagnosed). My biggest worry now is her eyes as I know I can do the best I can with treating her and since she was diagnosed she has not been left alone- this will probably change at some point because of work but for now it hasn't and hopefully won't for awhile (I want to try to make sure she is regulated the best I can).

I will have many questions and have been reading alot on here (and elsewhere) and I know a few people that have/had dogs with diabetes. My question right now is this, (my dog by the way is a 22lb Cairen Terror/Cocer Spaniel mix) how is the easiest/best way to do the blood testing at home? Is it the ear? Somewhere on the tail? Lip? I seem to think the ear or tail would be best but I believe this will be one of the hardest things I'll have to do and would like input from others. (I have done reading but... ) Thank you so much and I will try to get the exact model and type of monitor I have as well if that might help at all. Thanks again.

[Fishslayer]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Welcome! You will finds loads of expertise and moral support here.

It's great that you have a vet that encourages home testing. Our regular vet is not real fond of it. I have been home testing since the start thanks to the folks here. They walked me through every step.

There are a number of places to get blood. Lucy (my diabetic foster) and I use the lip prick method. There is a video on this site that is a great "how to." Lucy is very food motivated and we test right before her meals. It didn't take her long to associate the two & now runs right for our testing spot & lays right in my lap to be tested. She KNOWS what comes after the test!

We use the One Touch Ultra II. It is also a human meter. Diabetic supplies for humans are pretty much always cheaper than the veterinarian equivelents. Natalie has an error chart on the site. Mine reads 41 points low around 200. It was tested by the vet during Lucy's spay. Meters differ, though, and you'll want to take your dog to the vet and do a comparison test with the same blood draw. Then you will know exactly how much correction you need. The error varies at different BG levels so comparing errors at a number of points would be best.

Others will be along shortly with more information. I'm still pretty new at this as well. I knew nothing when I got Lucy in January & she quite literally owes her life to the folks on this site & the Cushings forum.

Rick

[ravenecw]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Thanks for the reply, like I said my vet seemed to think the ear was best but I guess I won't know until I test (this weekend or next, I scheduled a hair cut for Monday as I want to cut her hair short so it might be easier to do and might wait until the following weekend).

Things seem to be going great though since starting the insulin so I'm very happy and confident that things will be ok with the blood curve (other than perhaps drawing the blood itself). My dog usually is very helpful though when trying to help her so i'm thankful for that. I will get back on here with the monitor I have, thanks again.

[Fishslayer]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Most dog people haven't had much success with the ear. It's the proper place for cats, but dogs are different. I believe it's because they don't have as many blood vessels there as cats.

Most either use the lip or shave a spot at the base of the tail.

Many have had good results using the callous that dogs get on their elbows. The skin is pretty thick there, though, & you'd probly need to lance by hand rather than with a pen device.

The paw pad is another place to try.

hehe... none of my dogs like having their ears messed with anyway...

Rick

[k9diabetes]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Welcome to you and your pup!

Although vets usually use the ear on cats and dogs, ears are generally not the best place to test on a dog as they don't readily provide a good blood drop.

If you haven't already seen the video and picture tutorials of testing in various places, you can find them here: www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html.

I would start with either the lip or the tail with your dog.

With the lip, you usually can use a lancing device. With the tail you would probably have to hold the lance in your hand instead of using a clicker lancing device.

I really like the One Touch... your dog is on the smaller side though so you might try the Freestyle meters as they have tended to work well on small dogs and take a very tiny amount of blood.

If you want to use a lancing device, over the years most people have preferred the Softclix by Accuchek. It's quieter and sturdier than the ones that come with the other meters and I loved it. I really preferred not to have to lance by hand! :0

I can understand why vets don't use the lip... I wouldn't want to try to lance the lip of a dog who's freaked out at being at the vet!! But at home with a trusted parent it works great on most dogs and there are almost no nerve endings in the upper inside lips. I tested our dog three times a day for four years and he didn't mind a bit.

I'm so excited that you are diving into home testing!

Natalie

[eyelostit]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Welcome ravenecw

I use the tail method, might have to shave it a lil bit depending on how much fur your dog has there, Niki did not like the lip or ear method she was not going for that, I use a teeny teeny amount of vaseline and rub that in, then blot it with a kleenex or paper towel, this helps the blood to bead up, you don't have to use the vaseline everyday, once its on there it wil last for several days.

I'm glad you are starting to home test, it really helps alot.
Dolly

[ravenecw]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Like I said I do have an appt. for a haircut on her for Monday so maybe i'll ask to shave some of the fur at the base of the tail just in case i need to do it there. I do prefer to use the pen to do the lancing (i'm sorry if i'm messing up some of the wording here) instead of doing it by hand.

I'm actually off to get some more needles now- I use the u40 needles but I have seen on here you can use the u100 needles if you convert for the difference for the units? The only reason I ask this is because I know someone who has a whole mess full of unsued u100 needles (the only thing of course besides having to convert from 6 units while using the u40 needles to the new measurement is also the fact the needle itself is alot shorter on the u100 needles, I think they would still work however).0

Anyway I will get back on here to list my monitor I have as well but it is a very small amount blood needed I do know that. Anyway I come on here multiple times a day and continue to read, and again want to say thank you to everyone (this is alot of help).

[KramiesSister]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

I find the dew claw works really well for me....a video of my Kramer is on that website that Natalie listed (I'm so proud heehee) and the key for the dew claw is just to press hard when you poke and "milk" the little pad towards the spot you poked.

Try the meter on yourself and get a feel for it. Sometimes its the clicking that bothers the dogs more than the poke, in which case you can just use the lancet without the clicker.

I think home testing really gives people more confidence in their ability to manage diabetes... good job for taking this step!

Breanne and Kramer

[Daisy's Mom]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

I hate ALL blood drawing but the tail works best as far as daisy is
concerned but no blood comes out so that is not good!

I will try that dew claw. Does it work in 1 poke?
I just can't stand to keep jabbing her.

I hope they find the right dosage and I don't need to.

When Daisy is on the right insulin will I still have to
get blood tests? Whats the scoop?

[KramiesSister]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

It works for us in one poke as long as we press firmly.

I don't think Kramer actually even feels it anymore...he doesn't even flinch.

Breanne and Kramer

[ravenecw]

Re: New Here and New to Diabetes

Sounds like a control issue. That's pure baloney about the ears and lip being "less accurate" sources of blood. I wonder if she meant the meters are less accurate. Does she use a meter in her office or a lab analyzer to check BG?

Personally, I'd skip the fructosamine test. A curve would be much more useful at this point and you can do that at home.

All the fructosamine test does is tell you what the average blood sugar has been for the preceding two weeks. Doesn't tell you if it was an average of 400 and 75 or 300 and 250.

If a dog can't be home tested, then the fructosamine can provide some information you can't get any other way. But for any dog that's being home tested, it tells you less than the home testing and probably even less than urine testing.

The diabetes presentation I just attended strongly discouraged making dosage adjustments based on a fructosamine test. He very much prefers curves and specifically prefers curves done at home in the dog's usual environment. In particular, if the fructosamine result is poor, he reminds that then you know the regulation has been lost but you don't know WHY the regulation has been lost. So you need a curve and to check for infections, etc.

What you might need to do in order to get the internist on board is do home blood glucose testing throughout the two week period and do a curve just before the fructosamine test. Then let her do the fructosamine test and see how it compares to your readings at home.

Then never do another fructosamine test!

Doing one might help allay the vet's concerns about your home testing if she can look at your information and the fructosamine together and see (1) which provides more information, and (2) that the fructosamine test result suggests the same (vaguely, which is all it can do) range of blood sugar as your tests.

I did a few fructosamine tests with Chris early on because they made the vet feel better. But after a couple I simply declined them. I provided the vet with curves.

In the end, this may not be the doc you want to work with. The best situation is one who is flexible, open to new ideas, and treats you as a very important part of the treatment team. Many many vets have been trained to handle diabetes the way this IM is but there are better ways to do it and some have been very slow to come around to the benefits of home testing.

We were lucky in that Chris was not on Vetsulin. I could buy insulin without a prescription, which did give me the freedom to tell his vet that I was unwilling to do certain things.

And when what I was doing was working so well, they generally relaxed and started working with me. But it takes time to get past those barriers and it takes a vet who doesn't see himself or herself as the only person who should make decisions for your dog.

First off I haven't got thru this whole thread yet but good luck with your dog and you sound like you have done alot to keep your dog happy- I am in the process of getting ready to do my first blood testing at home as well (doing the curve), my vet wants me to do it this weekend or next and I am probably going to do it next weekend (but may try to do a blood test or two before then just to figure out how and where to get the bood easiest with my dog).

Now with what you are saying above about the fructosamine tests, you are saying do 1 (or 2) and then just don't worry about that test as long as you are home testing? My vet did mention this test and my dog is on vetsulin- now my vet is not againts using a different insulin however I am unsure on how to choose a different insulin and also would rather not switch right now anyway as for over the past month my dog seems like she use to be with the vetsulin (not sure if a switch I'd get the same results). Anyway, not trying to hijack this thread as they say so please forgive me but what are your thoughts about the vetsulin to other insulins? And I don't think my vet would give me a hard time if I said no tot he fructosamine test but do you think I should at least do it once or twice after I do my blood curves? Or is it really not worth it like you say (my dog has only been diagnosed for a little over a month so i'm nervous and learning too, thanks)?

[k9diabetes]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Some of us (not me ) are a wiz at home testing the very first day... some of us (me! ) took a week or two to get good at it.

So I encourage you to get started now when there's no pressure on you to complete a curve and practice and then do the curve the following weekend.

You'd never know it from the video I did with Chris but that's because that was four years after I started testing. The first two weeks I was clumsy and Chris was confused and it just took us both a while to get used to the process.

I wouldn't do a fructosamine at this point with your dog if you're going to do curves. And if you're successful at curves I wouldn't do a fructosamine at all. Where fructosamines are really helpful is in an animal, cat or dog, who can't have a curve done. It's better than nothing but not a lot.

I see no need to even think about changing insulins unless it's a problem as far as how the dog is responding to Vetsulin or it's a very large dog who needs too much liquid from U40 Vetsulin. If it isn't broke, no need to fix it! The curve will start to tell you whether it's working.

I don't believe in "good" insulins and "bad" insulins. Pretty much without exception any insulin is "good" for some dogs and "bad" for others.

There are pluses and minuses to Vetsulin just in terms of its... nature.

It's a U40 insulin, which means you inject a larger amount of fluid than NPH to give the same number of units. This works well in small dogs - allows you to better adjust the dose in small increments. But works poorly for large dogs because you have to give a very large quantity of fluid to deliver a large dose of insulin.

Vetsulin is pork-based so it's a molecular match to a dog's natural insulin. But that too has pluses and minuses. It doesn't cause resistance but sometimes the lack of resistance means it works too fast.

So forget which product is "better"! It's all relative to what works and doesn't work for your dog - that's really all that matters. If Vetsulin works well, Wonderful!! If not, look to change diet and/or insulin.

I'm looking forward to the curve. Let us know how the testing is going and if you need any help making it work.

Natalie

[ravenecw]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

I'm sure I will need some help, I watched the videos and my next step it to get in touch with a friend to maybe help me with this (he has drawn blood from a dog he onc- it ie had that was diabetic). I am anxious to try to (hesitant too) because I really want to know the numbers. I have 2 different lancets though (ones that are real skinny and ones that aren't as skinny if that makes sense, I wish I had more of the skinny ones but we'll see how each of them work)- I know once I start doing it I will have no problems, it's just a matter of getting to it and finding th best spot to draw the blood. I will keep you posted as the forum is excellent (found you through facebook of all things). I am thining of asking the vet if there is a way to test the accuracy of my meter it is a Paradigm Link (fast results and very very small blood sample needed, .3ul of blood). I do see the one lancets are ultra-fine (but don't have many of them) and the others that I have a lot of are tri-bevel (hmmmm...).... Anyway I will let you know, I have it on the shallowest setting right now but read on the thread that I will probably have to put it (it goes from 1-6 with 1 being the shallowest). Thanks again.

[ravenecw]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Getting help with drawing blood for the first time today- will let you know how it goes.

[Fishslayer]

Re: 1 month in- need to do the curve next

Getting help with drawing blood for the first time today- will let you know how it goes.

When we first started my wife helped hold Lucy for testing. After awhile Lucy knew her meal was coming after the test so she become actually eager for the test & it became a one person job.

Good luck!

Rick