Winston - Odd numbers; need advice

[jesse girl]

Re: Winston's Thread

sounds like a good plan

[Gomeysmom]

Re: Winston's Thread

Hi Jesse's girl I am curious how you are able to fee one meal per day but give (3) shots per day? Do you give a snack when you are giving other injections?
Just curious. Gomey isn't thrilled about eating meals 2x...she will... but the morning portion has to be spoon fed some days! ~Thanks!

[jesse girl]

Re: Winston's Thread

its really quite simple i feed her only meal at 5:30 pm give her half her dose and then at 7:30 i give the other half of her dose there are small adjustments depending on her fasting number . i split her dose because she just wont accept a larger one dose and rebounds

at 7:30 am i give her a dose depending on fasting and a small vita bone snack . we did go with no snack at the beginning and the numbers were ok but the snack greatly improved blood sugar and she looks forward to it in the morning as her non diabetic treat a glimmer of her past

if i could put a number on the size of her dose it would be about 2 units so she may average 6 units for the day being a 25 pound dog

the funny thing we did not do it for appetite problems but with hope to improve regulation and to avoid pancreatitis which she had a severe case . it improved regulation and most importantly stability to blood sugar and we haven't seen pancreatitis (knock on wood )

sometimes you have to work with the cards that are given and sticking a square peg in a round hole is counter productive

you can do many things maybe not as unusual as jesse maybe the only diabetic eating one meal a day but maybe giving a smaller meal say at breakfast and a larger at dinner depending on appetite of coarse you have to probably give an adjusted dose but maybe not

you dont have to do the 12/12 routine or feed prescription food if it doesnt work for you and your pup but you still have to be consistent in what you do day in day out . thats the key to this disease

jesse shows there are many possibilities is it scary to try them yes but when testing blood sugar at home it takes away allot of the fear of trying something different

[Gomeysmom]

Re: Winston's Thread

Thanks for the response! I have been splitting the food every 12 hours. Her preference is to eat dinner between 5:30pm and 6:00pm but breakfast is not "interesting" before 7:00am? depending on when I roust her and how long we venture out in the mornings (Fresh air and long walk=coffee for her)
I will not be ready (yet) to switch around any doses yet but once I am more familiar with her numbers and how and when the insulin affects her. I am being a homecook so don't know that I have been precise enough with calories etc..She has been doing good but I am still working on pain management for her ability to get up and down. (She had an amazing week attitude wise last week)
I will share any details of our progress once it happens.
Again it is good to know that I could make Breakfast more of a light snack and not a meal. (eventually)

[Aggie]

Re: Winston's Thread

I want to ask about high triglycerides. Winston presented suddenly with 2500 level triglycerides about a year ago. He was put on a very , very low fat diet (presumably very, very high in carbs) and his triglycerides did drop, to the 400 range.

Then he got diabetes in February. I am not sure how the two diseases are linked. But I think they are related because a lot of diabetic dogs seem to have cholesterol/triglyceride issues too.

Because he has diabetes, I wanted to keep the low fat but also lower the carbs, and the diet I have him on now tries to straddle both requirements, but to be honest I am nervous that the triglycerides might be going up again because his new diet isn't as low fat (he hasn't been tested since Feb). But he wouldn't eat the very low fat diet consistently at all, so that wasn't going to work either. He often just skipped it all together.

It seems to me like high triglycerides and diabetes are hard to manage together since the recommended diets don't exactly match up. Does anyone here have this as an issue?

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Winston's Thread

When my Lily was first diagnosed with diabetes, she also had very high triglycerides and cholesterol. To make a long story short, it turns out that the underlying cause of the high triglycerides and cholesterol was hypothyroidism. During the period of her undiagnosed hypothyroidism, her BG numbers also were very high.

Once she was put on thyroxine, everything came down to acceptable levels.

[Raysaint]

Re: Winston's Thread

raised triglycerides doesn't cause insulin dependent diabetes, but it can cause type 2 diabetes. Elevated triglycerides is a symptom of not only diet concerns, but it can indicate insulin resistance or just not enough insulin; in short, poorly controlled diabetes.
A low fat diet isn't going to necessarily fix the problem on its own. But it helps.
And I assume when the dog was tested, it was a fasting test. Food can affect testing levels.

So the connection between diabetes and triglycerides is more, diabetes can raise triglycerides. If blood sugar isn't controlled, the body stores more calories in the fat cells (triglycerides.)

[Aggie]

Re: Winston's Thread

The triglyceride issue preceded the diabetes issue by about 9 months (that we know of, could be more). At the time of his first high triglycerides reading, his blood glucose was still in normal range. It is confusing. I think even his cholesterol was OK, but the triglycerides were off the chart.

I actually do not remember that the test was fasting. I'm pretty sure it wasn't, since it was a 'surprise result' in a basic yearly exam. But the trig level was 2500 which I think would have been really high no matter fasting or not. That was last May, 2016. By August 2016 it was down to 800, by Feb 2017 down to 400s, and then diabetes.

Speaking of insulin resistance, Winston had gained a lot of weight in the 6 months before the diabetes diagnosis and was the heaviest I've ever seen, 25 pounds. I had actually put him on a diet (by reducing food, not changing it), only to watch him lose 3 pounds in 3 weeks and get the diabetes diagnosis. That was all very weird timing.

Thyroid was tested in Feb with diagnosis and said to be marginally or borderline low, but not so much that it raised a red flag. I think he was specifically tested to see if that was the cause of the diabetes and the vet basically didn't think so. However, I might pursue that hypothyroidism angle because I've heard it a lot. I also plan to go get all his blood tests from the vet.

Winston is also on phenobarbital and so some of his liver enzymes are elevated due to that. Whether or not that has anything to do with any of this, I have no idea.

I am also not convinced that Cushing's isn't a possibility.

[amydunn19]

Re: Winston's Thread

Some dogs just by genetics have high triglycerides - take schnauzers. I have met very few schnauzers who do not have high triglycerides- it is just part of their DNA. It is widely known and may be part of the reason that they are harder to regulate and may be resistant to insulin.

The causes of diabetes seem to be multifaceted. Some dogs that take steroids in high doses or over a long period of time seem to be prone. Certain breeds tend to get diabetes like schnauzers, bichons, poodles, to name a few. Dogs who suffered trauma or pancreatitis also have a risk. There really isn't a concrete cause that I have ever heard. Diet has always been associated with it but I think that is a misnomer because dogs don't get type 2 diabetes like cats do. Many people blame themselves when they likely had no fault at all. Fatty food can play a role because it will tax the pancreas or cause pancreatitis and thus could be a secondary cause. Sometimes, it just happens for no apparent reason.

I felt Maggie's diabetes originated from a copperhead bite. She was really sick and developed pancreatitis. Her immune system really weakened and she developed allergies to everything in the environment. Of course, they gave her temaril p and treated her with steroids at times. By 7, I think her pancreas was just done producing insulin.

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Winston's Thread

Aggie... If you decide to look further into possible hypothyroidism, make sure your vet has a full thyroid profile done as it is the only way to positively confirm hypothyroidism. The standard T4 thyroid test can be misleading or inconclusive.

One of the best places to have a full thyroid profile done is at Hemopet (Dr. Jean Dodds).

http://www.hemopet.org/clients/14145...and_Dosing.pdf

[Isabelle]

Re: Winston's Thread

This is an interesting thread for me and Izzy. Her sky high triglycerides were diagnosed four years ago. She had the thyroid test and tested normal. Her diet was changed and salmon oil added - and her triglycerides were normal within 6 months. Three years later, diabetes was diagnosed. It took 10 months to get her BG counts normal (for now). She is going to the vet for her senior wellness exam, she is 9 - so we will cross our fingers that all goes well.

[amydunn19]

Re: Winston's Thread

We used the Salmon Oil with Maggie and Mya - both had high triglycerides and it seemed to help. I got the kind that had more Omega 3 - some fish oil caps have more Omega 6 which doesn't seem as effective in all that I have read.

[Raysaint]

Re: Winston's Thread

if you want to check quality of your fish oil supplement. Krill oil is becoming more interesting also, based on new research. I'm reading up on phytoplankton also.

http://www.nutrasource.ca/ifos/default.aspx

[Aggie]

Re: Winston's Thread

Thanks to everyone for your input. Update regarding blood tests (I got the last couple of years data from the vet).

I think Winston's thyroid has been tested just once, this Feb, when diabetes was suspected and being confirmed. T4 came in at 0.7, when normal range is 0.8 to 3.4. So slightly low... but the vet says being on phenobarbital can cause this and was not very concerned.

His triglycerides were 2500 May 2016 (they had never been high before this), 800 June 2016, and 45 (really?!?) August 2016. How can that even happen in 3 months? Only change was to very low fat diet, Royal Canin GI, which he never consistently liked and only ate when he felt like it (free fed).

His triglycerides in Feb 2017 were over 400, at the time of diabetes diagnosis. He was still on Royal Canin then.

NONE of these were fasting tests to my knowledge. I know for triglycerides this can matter.

Since February, his diet has changed a lot. Since he wouldn't eat the Royal Canin with any consistency or enthusiasm, we just couldn't keep that when he got diabetes.

Now he eats, per meal, a half cup of Wellness Core Reduced Fat kibble (something around 12% fat, 180 calories), a topper called Natural Balance duck and chicken (under 12% fat, 70 calories), and 1 ounce plain boiled chicken breast (50 calories).

My worse nightmare would be if he now has really high triglycerides again with this new diet, because what would we do? I just got him regulated in the past month, more or less, and I sure don't want a massive diet change. Also, should I get a full thyroid panel done given his T4 is a bit low and he has had triglyceride issues in the past year?

P.S. I'm leery of adding fish oil/krill oil due to trying to keep diet low fat.

[Raysaint]

Re: Winston's Thread

I did some serious research in reputable studies, and apparently omega-3 oils do not affect pancreatitis. Even tho they are a "fat", they actually help reduce triglycerides. I just ordered some Nordic Naturals omega-3 for pets.
Omega-6 oils can contribute to inflammation, so fish oil in general might not be good. It has to be just omega-3's.