Gretel is now our angel

[buddingartist]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Carolyn

I don't know if you saw my post about the Niacin. Do you give Gretel the regular Niacin or the Niacin Non Flush?

The ones I get are capsules that you can separate and spread the powder in the food.

Louise

[CarolW]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Hi Carolyn,

Oh my doGNess; I'm SO sorry you're having all this hassle - with Gretel - and then with your daughter and grandkids as well! I know I'd be sobbing by now!

I do have a few thoughts, though I don't know if they'll be any use to you at all. In general, I think you're understanding Gretel's behaviors very well, so there's that.

First, I agree that the niacin is likely what's causing the rolling-around after eating. That stuff is really fierce - produces a huge hot flush. Have you ever taken the stuff? I gather there's a formula that doesn't produce that flush, but whether that would do the desired job, I don't know. Anyway, I'd discuss that with your vet when the vet gets back.

I'd guess the difference between morning and evening resembles that of many dogs, who find eating in the morning more difficult than in the evening. Kumbi never showed any such reluctance, so I got away without any difficulties in that department.

Occasionally I did have extra stuff - mostly, antibiotics, sometimes some other medications, to give Kumbi with his meals. Wanting to make sure he got the stuff in him, I'd set aside the tablets or capsules, and prepare his meal. Then, before putting his bowl down, I'd wrap the tablets or capsules in a small amount of his canned food - whch he loved - and hand-feed it to him.

The technique goes like this, to make SURE he gets it, though I found I didn't need to do this, after all.

First hand-fed bit is small, and I have the second bit with the payload in it and a third ready to go. So, first I feed the first bit, and then instantly follow with the payload, which, by then, Kumbi is ready to gulp, and then follow up with the third, empty-of-stuff bit, to assure myself that everything went down as it should. THEN I put his bowl down.

I wonder if you can use the WD canned to do this, as Gretel wouldn't get a lot of it - just enough to do the wrapping and the tempting to start with.

On another forum, somebody said few dogs can resist burnt toast, and suggested crumbling bits of it into the dog's food, as an enticement. Said it works well for a lot of dogs. I'm wondering if that would work for you and Gretel, maybe even to use with the payloaded stuff. I don't think it takes very much of it to alter the taste; it's fairly powerful - charcoal-y stuff.

I wonder if at some point Gretel bit into a capsule or tablet and that put her off. Something to watch and consider, anyway. This sounds odd, but if you've crushed a tablet (she might have bitten into one), and you want to get the powder down her, I wonder if putting the powder into a capsule would help. Going backwards, so to speak.

In case you need it, or might be able to use it:

http://www.coherentdog.org/meds2gelcaps.php

Fair warning: it's my usual long, complex stuff.

Please keep us posted on how things are going. You have my great empathies!

Kumbi says to Gretel: Just gobble it!

Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:33:25 (PDT)

[buddingartist]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

The Niacin Non Flush will not cause the reaction.

I bought and took the regular by mistake and ended in emergency, my husband tought I was having a stroke. That's how nasty it felt.

That could be the cause of Gretel's rolling around and scratching. The reaction was quite rapid with me.

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Louise and Carol - Thanks for your responses - much appreciated!

Louise, I had called the vet last week to get her to specify which type of niacin I should give to Gretel and she had left for the day and was on vacation for the next week. One of the techs asked another of the vets and she didn't know specifics, just the amount of milligrams she should get (which I already knew). I got the regular Niacin tablets, not the non-flush kind just because the vet didn't specify that. So I'm very convinced that's what the reaction last night was due to.

Carol, I've never taken Niacin but my husband takes Niaspan and he's constantly complaining about the flush. I really liked your technique for medicating Kumbi and I'm going to try that tonight, and thank you so much. I also think you're right on when you speculated that Gretel may have bitten into a capsule or something and now is suspicious of every bite. Don't know if it may have happened with her morning feeding and she only associates it with that particular meal or not. Not sure if she'd be that savvy, but hey, dogs are pretty smart and it just could be. She has never ever been reluctant to eat, not in the mornings, not EVER, so this is something new and baffling.

The vet had mentioned last week that if she didn't want to take the fish oil capsule, I could just open her mouth and get it way to the back of her throat so she'd have to swallow it. She was concerned that by opening the capsule she really wouldn't be getting ALL of the oil inside of it, that some of the oil would still be clinging to the inside of the capsule.

All I do know is that everytime the vet adds a new supplement, it gets harder and harder to get everything into Gretel. I think she's just starting to assert herself and say "hey, enough is enough....I don't like that stuff and I'm not going to eat it".

I just feel so bad for her, even though I know that everything that's being done to or for her is for her own well-being. I hate the thought of putting things in her food that she hates, and/or forcing things down her throat. I, or course, will do what needs to be done, but I sure do hate it.

Thank you my friends, for coming to my aid once again.

Carolyn

[CarolW]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Hey, Carolyn!

If it were me, I'd go get those non-flush niacin tablets Louise referred to, even if they do cause some flushing. Probably nothing LIKE as bad as the other kind. I've taken the flushing kind - it's fierce!

About medicating with the other stuff, the principle is, to try to keep the dog from biting into the tablet or capsule. Because dogs often do gulp, especially if it's a food they really, really like, and more so if you first give a taste, the technique I described has worked well with my animals. I got pretty lucky, though, that they didn't bite into the medicine often. Once my cat did - after that, FORGET cream cheese, which was what I was using at the time.

I'd have one hand loaded well with the tidbits; first the small one, then the loaded one, and perhaps the third in my other hand; I'd hold the stuff just high enough so Kumbi would have to reach for it very slightly - not too far.

And his breakfast (or supper) would already be prepared and waiting; then once the meds were down Kumbi, I'd put his food bowl in his crate, and he'd go for it.

So, let us know how all this works out. And, Louise, I'm very glad to know about the non-flushing niacin!

Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:43:38 (PDT)

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Carol, I tried your method tonight when feeding Gretel and it worked like a charm. Of course, the true test will be if it works with tomorrow morning's feeding

As for using the no-flush niacin, I'm going to talk to the vet about that and see what her preference is. Now tonight I only gave her one 100 mg tablet rather than two (which is what I gave her last night), and she didn't have any reaction at all. I know she's only getting half of what the doctor ordered, but I wanted to see if it would make a difference as far as a reaction and it did. I think maybe eventually I can work her up to 200 mgs.

Thank you again so much for your sound advice. I'll let you know how it goes in the morning.

Carolyn

[CarolW]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Glad things seem to be going better. I'd forgotten maybe we can adapt some to niacin, maybe losing some of the flush-experience (maybe not, though).

Thinking back to my schedules with Kumbi, I also realized that I had a very stable morning routine. I'd be up about an hour before Kumbi's feeding time - minimum, 35 minutes, and during that time, I'd be fixing my own breakfast as well as Kumbi's, so food was perhaps on his mind to some extent - for up to an hour before I fed him.

That COULD be part of what eased his ability to eat in the morning. Just a thought there. He'd also usually go out for a bit before his breakfast, at least, to pee. I have a dog-door, and he'd use that, and sometimes I'd go out with him, at least for a few minutes. I think it got his body moving, perhaps making it easier for him to eat in the morning.

Tue, 20 Jul 2010 18:41:48 (PDT)

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Well, Gretel seems to be back on track with eating her morning meal. The vet has taken her off the Niacin for now as it seemed to be the thing that was causing the feeding problem as well as the bad reaction.

She had a spot check at the vet on Wednesday and the reading was 256, this was about 3-1/2 hours after eating and insulin. Rather than up the insulin dosage again, the vet has cut back a little bit on the amount of food per meal, as her weight actually has crept up just a little higher than we would like it to be.

Carol - the first time I tried your little "trick" (giving 3 little portions of food, with the medicine inside the 2nd portion) it worked like a charm. Would you believe the next morning I tried it again, and of course the 1st portion was gobbled right down and when I reached to give her the medicine filled portion she clamped her mouth tight shut and wouldn't open it! I had to pry her mouth open and put it in. She did swallow it, but I know she knew what was in there and really didn't want it. Dogs can be sooooooo smart!

The last two mornings she practically inhaled her food, I really think because she couldn't SMELL the Niacin in it, and also possibly because she was really hungry for it as she's getting fewer calories. Whatever the reason, at least we seem to be getting back on track. Now I have to figure out what time I want her feedings to be, as she's gotten way off schedule the last week or so because I was waiting for her to eat before I gave the insulin. I had always fed her at 6:30am & pm with insulin immediately following. Now she's at 8:00am & pm, but that's not going to work long term, even though I appreciate not have to get up that early in the morning! Guess I'll work her back to 6:30, it seems to work best for the most part.

Thanks fo all of you who made suggestions!

Carolyn

[k9diabetes]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

I'm having the same problem with my cat. He's been on meds for two years now for IBD shading into possibly early lymphoma. He's figured out all of my attempts to hide his pills. The cat who can hardly figure out a litter box can pick them out even inside of a gel cap.

Natalie

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Ok everyone, here's the moment we've all been waiting (and waiting, and waiting) for! I was finally successful in home testing Gretel!!! I used my One Touch Ultra meter and a Relion lancing device and Relion 26 gauge lancets - AND, I did it in her lip. I wish the reading would have been lower (it was 356), but for the moment I just need to bask in my achievement!!

I decided today just had to be the day I did it, because today she was due to have another curve done at the vet, but she decided she didn't want to eat again this morning. I really think it was because she knew where she was going because I made the mistake of washing her face before I fed her (which was really stupid, I know!), but I always wash her face before she goes to the vet (those schnauzer whiskers, you know - always dragging through everything!). The vet said we should reschedule the curve for later in the week, but told me to give her the full dose of insulin anyway but leave her food out to see if she would eat later (which she did around noon). I was really hesitant to do that, even though she's been running high. The reading I got was at 5:00pm and she had her insulin at 8:45 this morning. I had tried to test on her ear around 1:00, but couldn't get enough blood. So I gave her a break for a couple of hours and then made my 2nd attempt.

Anyway, I just knew I had to be able to test her to see where she was at. So I had a very strong motivation today - guess that's what I really needed. I feel so much better now, knowing that I CAN do it and don't have to be in the dark as to what's going on with her.

I know this reading doesn't tell me too much because of the off timing of her food and insulin, and I haven't compared it yet to what the vet gets, but I'm just so happy to know I'm capable of doing it finally.

Thanks to all of you for your encouragement and patience all these months.

Carolyn

[k9diabetes]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Carolyn!!! Congratulations!!!! That's so exciting that you were able to test her!

Natalie

[Jaye]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Congratulations!

I sure agree with what you say here...

I feel so much better now, knowing that I CAN do it and don't have to be in the dark as to what's going on with her.

[Patty]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Yeah, Carolyn!
Congratulations!
Patty

[eileen]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

YIPPEE Carolyn!!

oh, the benefits you will reap with having this knack ;-)

I'm always so thrilled whenever someone takes this all important step.

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Thank you everyone, for the pats on the back! I know I could never have done it without your steadfast encouragement and support. I must admit, I'm feeling quite happy with myself - kind of feel like I've just been admitted into a club I've been wanting to join for a long time.

Carolyn