Bichon

[GizzysGirl]

Hello, I'm new to this site but loving it so far!

My dog Gizmo is a 19lb Bichon frise. He was diagnosed with diabetes in Oct. 2011..and is currently on 11 units of Humulin N 2x daily. He has never really regulated, and was recently tested for Cushing's disease and a T4 (thyroid test). Both tests came back normal, but the vet is waiting to hear from an endocrinology vet (who has been out sick for gosh knows how long..) before she will do anything!

My dog has been panting a lot, drinking a ton of water (since Oct..thats what made us think to bring him in for diabetes), and literally pees everywhere in the house at night. needless to say, my mother is not happy and we have even thought of putting him to sleep....We haven't because we had hopes that the cushing's test would have provided some answers, but he came back with a result of 15.4? and i guess they don't consider him cushinoid unless the result is >20 or >21.

We don't have a ton of money to keep trying expensive tests, and he is 9 years old already. We treat him like our baby though so it's been too hard to even decide of any alternative. He doesn't eat dog food (poor thing was spoiled his whole life! ) and we boil him chicken and cook/drain hamburg meat for him on a daily basis.

has anyone else had this issue? I just feel that it's been almost 6 months since his diagnosis and he isn't regulating..and our vet seems baffled!

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Hi and welcome!

I've got to run out right now unfortunately, but will write to you later today.

Natalie

[jesse girl]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

are you home testing ?

my jesse was very unstable and only testing at home gave her life back to her that was the key to her success

welcome to both of you

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Welcome... this is a wonderful place to be, and if you are suspecting Cushings, you may want to join the sister site k9Cushings, as well

Do you know what specific tests were done for Gizmo regarding the Cushings? Was an ultrasound done? Does he have any other symptoms of Cushings (other than extremely thirst), for example is his coat in good condition, any weakness in his hindlegs... of course alot of these symptoms overlay uncontrolled diabetes.

What type of insulin is Gizmo on, and do you measure his food out, so he has the same food every feeding.

Do you have any curves to share with us?

I know alot of questions, but answers help everyone give recommendations. Again, a big welcome to you..

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

It would be very helpful if you could post the results of whatever blood glucose monitoring has been done - I hope a curve by the vet or maybe at home.

I can't say much about what might be going on with Gizmo until I have some idea what range his blood sugar is currently in.

It also would help to have the results of any blood panels the vet might have done to see if his kidney and liver values seemed to be okay.

I'm glad the Cushing's and thyroid tests came back normal. Cushing's medication and monitoring is quite expensive so it's good that he doesn't have it. There is one other possibility, something called Atypical Cushing's disease, which the vet probably hasn't tested for and there is a different kind of diabetes that can occur simultaneously but it's rare.

So before considering any other causes for his thirst and urination, we can start with his blood sugar and any blood panels done.

Please provide us with as much information as you can on all of his test results and blood sugar levels - pick up copies from the vet if need be.

It could be that the vet just hasn't been very aggressive in trying to get his blood sugar down to a good level. Though needing more than 11 units for a dog his size would put him on the high side of average, I have seen a few dogs who just need more than the usual amount of insulin to regulate, including a couple of 25 pound terriers who needed around 21 units of insulin per injection to get good blood sugar.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Oh, a Bichon! For the first time in my already long life, I have a Bichon-related dog (a Havanese; rescued privately; named Camellia). I've always been partial to this family of dogs.

I'll be awaiting your next report eagerly. Hope you can post the results of a curve your vet did (hoping there WAS a curve), and the other items Natalie requested. If you can post the information, you can get a LOT of really good assistance here.

A Big, Fat Welcome to this magnificent forum on canine diabetes!

Wed, 29 Feb 2012 02:58:05 (PST)

[sheureka]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Just wanted to say welcome and hang in there. My Rowlf is 13 now, and was diagnosed almost 3 years ago. It does get getter. - sheureka

[GizzysGirl]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Wow guys! thank you so much for all of your help/input!

I'm not quite sure what the curve would be...to say the least, i'm SO dissapointed in our vet, but due to history with them and the costs of switching vets (the VCA hospital is alot more $$ per visit, even just to get his sugar checked!) we have had to stick with them.

from my recent memory, his blood sugar has been up and down constantly. I remember highs being in the upper 400s, closer to like 490. He was hypoglycemic once, with a low of ~168, but we think that was due to too much insulin when he didn't eat all of his meal. The vet has been baffled completely..for a few weeks he was in the mid 200s and was doing well, but he was back up to about 400 3 weeks later. That's when she did the cushing's blood test.

For the cushings..the vet said his belly is very distended, but he has always had a pot belly. She also thought is fur was thinning, but to me it doesn't look that much thinner than usual..maybe a touch! He pants constantly, urinates a ton, and drinks alot of water..but i understand that could be just the diabetes too.

We feed him boiled chicken/cooked beef thats drained, basically all protein and the occasional low-fat kibble if we give him a handful on the bed (haha! he won't eat it otherwise..such a brat...) We don't measure it out in a cup or anything, but the amount of food is usually the same. Recently, he isn't having much of an appetite sometimes. It took us over an hour to coax him into eating half of his food this morning.

I'm wondering if maybe he isn't taking to the Humulin N...maybe if we switched to the vestulin it would be better? The vet is waiting to hear from an endocrinologist that she likes..but his urination is getting worse throughout the house at night..my mother wakes up first and literally mops the floor 2x daily..and is getting tired of everything. He's just been really hard to deal with but we do love our baby so we haven't been able to make the desicion to put him down..

Thank you again for all of your help! its comforting to know other people understand my woes.

[GizzysGirl]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

missed one...

We haven't been checking his sugar at home. Oddly enough..the vet hasn't even suggested this! argh! lol

[eileen]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Just a quick couple of comments...

Vetsulin is not an option as it was removed from the market back in 2010.
Read from the bottom up;

http://vetsulin.com/vet/Vet_ProductAlert.aspx

Also, having a nutritional and consistant diet it vital for our diabetics.
To achieve this many of us go to the lengths of weighing every food that goes into their meal so that every single meal is the same as the next.

Learning to home blood test is highly recommended and one of the best tools you can have.

It all takes alot of time, careful feeding and monitoring to begin to see any sort of control, it doesn't happen over night.

My girl was diabetic for 7 1/2 years until I lost her in January from bladder cancer. Controlling her diabetes was an ongoing thing for all of these years.

[SandyL]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Want to add my WELCOME!!

At the beginning, it was very frustrating for ALL of us!! You just have to breath and take one day at a time!

I too was frustrated with my vet!! I go to VCA hospital so I know what you mean by $$$$$. It's also such a large practice, and they all have different opinions on how to handle this ( none of which I agreed with though!). Doesn't surprise me that they didn't suggest home testing, that would take money out of their pocket!

On the peeing, have you considered confining him to one area until things get a little more controlled. It would take some of the frustration out of the situation and you mom would get a break on the mopping

Sandy

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

I suspect that his diet may not match his insulin very well and he could be going through rather large changes in blood sugar during the day.

I also worry about the nutritional soundness of his diet.

Diabetic dogs don't have to eat the prescription diet and you can also home cook for them with a recipe that's more nutritionally balanced. So whether a different prepared food or homecooked meals, it would be nice to get him eating more variety and/or a vitamin and mineral supplement.

Learning to test his blood sugar at home would allow you to get a better handle on what's going on with him without spending a lot of money. It also would be good to actually measure his food so you know you are giving him the same amount at each meal. Insulin has to be matched to food quantity.

If you would be willing to learn to test his blood sugar at home, we could help you start to manage him yourself since it seems like the vet is not very knowledgeable about diabetes. With home testing, you can get a much more complete picture of what's going on because you can test often and start to identify patterns and see whether the food and insulin are working together or at odds.

Please take a look at the pages on the main website, www.k9diabetes.com, for general discussions of how diabetes is managed, types of insulin, etc.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

I too worry about your dog's diet! Is that an all-meat diet? If so, that's not good for ANY dog, far less a diabetic dog.

If it were me, I'd be looking into improving the diet.

Wishing you great luck, and all the best - and I'm glad you're here; this is really a magnificent forum on canine diabetes. Which is why I stay here even though my Kumbi died a year ago June (of cancer, NOT diabetes).

Wed, 29 Feb 2012 21:41:54 (PST)

[GizzysGirl]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Thank you all so much for all of your feedback.

I'm going to pour through all of the other posts on this site to see different diet options.. The past few days we have spent over an hour trying to get him to eat. He wasn't taking to his usual chicken and beef..he will eat it if we put some cheese on it but i really hate doing that!

He's a really picky eater---he doesn't really eat dog food..once in a blue moon he will eat dry kibble on a bed if we hand feed him handfuls..such a brat! He also wouldn't eat anything we put rice in. He never has liked dog food..and i know the old addage of 'if you dont give him anything else they will eat it'..but we had tried that in the past and he literally is so stubborn that he will just not eat anything! Especially now, we don't want him to go without eating and messing up his insulin schedule

..Another question: do you guys notice that if you inject the insulin in different sites (Ie: Shoulder vs neck?) it may effect the insulin's effectiveness? We had been using his shoulders , but the past few days tried his neck (he cries when we do..), but he hasn't peed on the floor..Just trying to see if this made a difference, or if his accidents have decreased due to his eating less..

[Shellie]

Re: Bichon is not regulating!

Hi and welcome to the forum! Glad you found us here..hopefully we can help you get a handle on what's going on with your pup!

You CAN get different results with injecting in different areas. Depends on how thick the skin is and if there is fat in that area. Might want to stick with whatever seems to be lowering his sugar best if you can.

I worry about the food issue, too. Are you reducing his dosage when he won't eat? If he won't eat at all or eats only about a quarter...then dose only about a quarter of normal dosage. If he eats half...dose half of normal and if he eats three quarters...then dose only three quarters of normal. You don't want to give him more insulin than the food you give him...some goes to the basal needs they have every day and some goes to the food that you give him. If you give him too much, you can send him way too low. Low is usually under 100 or less. This could possibly be a cause of why his sugar seems to be going too high...if it drops really low, the body says oh no and sends out it's own sugar. It's a vicious cycle once started but can be stopped right off.

Testing at home is really the only way to truly regulate this ...especially if you are having troubles like you are. Watch and read the material that was suggested and we can help you with any details.

I know it can be so expensive...especially in the beginning when you don't quite know what is going on and are here, there, and everywhere. Home testing will save you lots of money in the long run!

Let us know any details you can so we can help you get an idea of what is going on. Hang in there and things will get better! Hugs!