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**k9diabetes** · 06-27-2011, 10:20 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

I am sorry to learn of Dany's passing...

What a gift you are to Tuesday and her family! Six units twice a day sounds like a good place to start... could even go down to 5 units if she's closer to 25 pounds than 30.

I always take panting as a sign of discomfort. Beyond that, it's not very informative as to why. Among the many possibilities I can think of would be sharply falling or rising blood sugar from a poor balance between the insulin and the meal, the meal itself causing some stomach upset, a reaction to the insulin or to something in the diet if she hasn't eaten it before.

Is the diet new?

(By the way, Science Diet Lite is so similar to WD that she could stick with the SDL if it works for her.)

It can be something minor that's new. For example, we started our dog on fish oil capsules, something he had for years but we hadn't given recently. He started panting every day and I couldn't figure out why. Never suspected the fish oil since he'd taken them for a long time when younger. But then something came up that made me take him off of all of his supplements for awhile. When I started adding them back in, he started panting as soon as the fish oil was added. So I took it back out. Panting stopped. That was obviously our culprit but I sure was surprised.

So I'd look at anything that's new to Tuesday, including but not limited to the insulin. NPH does contain a fish protein that can be an allergen, as can the preservatives in it. But I'd probably concentrate on the diet first if anything about it is new.

Natalie

**nikki** · 06-27-2011, 10:31 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Hello
I don't know anything about panting but i am sure someone will let you know sooon. How about calling the vet.

Keep us posted .

I wish you and your baby the best.

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 10:40 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Thanks for your reply! Nothing is new, Tuesday is on the same food no different treats (now of course she does not get them) There has been no change at all in anything. I find it so odd the panting seems to have a pattern of starting about 1 hour after the insulin is givin and then just bfore the next dose is needed she seems to be doign well. She is actually 23lbs so I was thinking maybe going down to 4 units tonight and seeing if that makes a difference. I know its better to be too low of a dose than too high.
I was hoping to keep her on the SD light as I dont know if the owners will pay for the WD- I will if needed, but did want to try to regulate her on SDlight if possible.
I wish there was a way to know if she is allergic to the insulin. If she is what happens then? Have you ever know anyone whos dog was allergic?

(Also, thank you for your words for Dany, I lost him last Oct. and it seems like yesterday, he was my heart and soul and it is still so difficult.)

Robin

**jesse girl** · 06-27-2011, 10:57 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

it could be a reaction to the insulin for my jesse insulin starts working 1.5 hours after injection and works for about 10 hours or so and that may explain why the panting starts 1 hour after shot insulin may be just starting

that may be why the panting stops at the end of the cycle when the insulin is depleted and give shot and the hole thing starts again

my jesse did not have panting but she did have rapid breathing and her gums would get red after shot so my jesse may have a reaction to the insulin but not after injection but when it starts working maybe it may create some kind of stress on the body over time and reducing her dose seem to improve things for her but it took some time maybe it was an adjustment period and they just get used to it i am not sure i would call it an allergic reaction but some kind of reaction

it is a foreign substance not really natural to the body it might work itself out just like jesse over time

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 11:07 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

@jesse girl, Yes! I agree with your thoughs on this, I just did not know if anyone else has experienced somthing like this as well. The fact it happens abotu 1 hour after injection is why I thought it has to be a reaction to the insulin. I believe, if not mistaken the insulin works at 30 min to 2 hours after injection.

Can anyone advise if they think 4 or 5 units is better to adjust to for Tuesday, she is 23lbs.

I will be lowering it for tonights dose, just not sure on how much, I would like to lower as much as thought safe to see if it does make a difference in her reaction or panting and restlessness tonight. Thanks everyone!

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 11:19 AM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

@Nikki- the vet who Tuesday was taken to for the blood work is horrible! Never letting her go back there, they should be shut down. The specialist I was able to speak with is not Tuesdays Dr. and although I have asked for some direction from her, I hate to impose, since she is not treating her. The family is not able to take her to another vet at this moment, so I am trying to help get her regulated. Since it does not really require a Dr if I can do the curves and know a good starting dosage, I think by continued monioting I can help. If not I will figure out getting her to a different vet.

**k9diabetes** · 06-27-2011, 12:02 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

I think it could be either the insulin itself or changing blood sugar - maybe the glucose level is falling or rising rather quickly, which can be uncomfortable. Dogs sometimes get used to higher blood sugar and can be uncomfortable for a while too when it is lowered.

Our dog was allergic to NPH but his allergy showed up as joint stiffness and pain. We thought he had arthritis. I was researching stiffness in joints when I came across a forum for people with something called Stiff Man Syndrome and several people posted at the forum that they, as human diabetics, developed stiffness when they started taking NPH and advised any diabetic experiencing Stiff Man Syndrome to get off of NPH.

So we took our dog off of NPH and went back to his previous regimen. Poof! Within 48 hours, his stiffness and soreness that made him hardly able to complete a short walk went away.

I haven't seen many dogs allergic to it but it's always a possibility.

The options to NPH are few right now - and mostly more expensive. ProZinc and Levemir are possibilities. Levemir isn't as expensive as it seems because it's four times more potent in dogs so you usually get by with one quarter of the number of units you would give of something else. But that also makes it very difficult to dose properly in small dogs so not necessarily a great option for Tuesday.

We used Regular insulin only - that has to be given 3-4 times a day though because it doesn't last very long. We had a flexible schedule and were able to do that.

As for the dose, at 23 pounds, I would drop to 4 units since some dogs can require a rather small dose for their size.

Our 62 pound dog used only 11-12 units of NPH and 7-8 units of Regular.

Maybe 6 units is just too much and it's dropping the blood sugar rather sharply, causing the panting.

Natalie

**SandyL** · 06-27-2011, 12:17 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

I'm so sorry for the loss of your Dany, but you're an angel for helping out with this families fur baby!

My Tiggy has had, for the past 2 years, (majority of the time she was NONdiabetic) intermittant episodes of the panting, getting very hot and extremly restless. She acts really weird and trys to hide. She has only had these episodes in the evening and they usually last for an hour. I've tested her during and all looks good with her BG. We actually got her into the vet during one and they had "NO Clue" all blood tests were normal etc. My personal feeling is that it's a stomach or intestinal issue causing pain. It will generally happen about 2-3 hours after she's eaten.
For now I call it the mystery illness and you're not alone, it's VERY frustrating!!

Sandy

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 12:29 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Originally posted by k9diabetes View Post

I think it could be either the insulin itself or changing blood sugar - maybe the glucose level is falling or rising rather quickly, which can be uncomfortable. Dogs sometimes get used to higher blood sugar and can be uncomfortable for a while too when it is lowered.

Our dog was allergic to NPH but his allergy showed up as joint stiffness and pain. We thought he had arthritis. I was researching stiffness in joints when I came across a forum for people with something called Stiff Man Syndrome and several people posted at the forum that they, as human diabetics, developed stiffness when they started taking NPH and advised any diabetic experiencing Stiff Man Syndrome to get off of NPH.

The options to NPH are few right now - and mostly more expensive. ProZinc and Levemir are possibilities. Levemir isn't as expensive as it seems because it's four times more potent in dogs so you usually get by with one quarter of the number of units you would give of something else. But that also makes it very difficult to dose properly in small dogs so not necessarily a great option for Tuesday.

As for the dose, at 23 pounds, I would drop to 4 units since some dogs can require a rather small dose for their size.

Natalie

Yes, I agree Im thinking 4u is better to start at. I am wondering, since I can not test yet, if it is somogyi effect. I had that once with Dany when he was at his worst. Without bg testing it is very difficult to know it is happening as you just think the bg is high becuase of the need for more insulin.

Did not think about the fact she could be use to the bg being higher and this lowering is too fast. As I said, my experience is only with Vetsulin in the past.

My specialist did mention Levemir but advised it was more cost. Athough I get your comment on lower amount...

Heres hoping lowering will help. I hate to see her hurting because of the insulin sicne she has to have it. I know the Levemir and ProZinc are going to be out of the price range for the owner....

Interesting on the Stiff Man Syndrome. I am glad you were able to figure that out. Its all so much at once it seems.

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 12:35 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

@tiggys grandma

OMG! Yes Tuesday does the same thing! "panting, getting very hot and extremly restless. She acts really weird and trys to hide" I however dont know the actual length of time, I just know by the time the next dose is due she is not acting like that, she is acting normal. She has been on the insulin for 8 doses now and it has happend every time. But her typical diabetic symptoms are less, less water and less potty.... Did you try adjusting the dose you were giving? if so did it change anything? Thanks for the reply on this!

**jesse girl** · 06-27-2011, 12:38 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

did she actually get 10 units per cycle that is alot to start for a smaller dog my jesse was overdosed at the begining 16 units for the whole day she is at 4 maybe your baby was given way to much insulin and put some stress on the body and maybe that is what happened to jesse and the body remembers that episode and equates that to the insulin

like natalie said for jesse there is really no other choices for insulin so we had to make it work and her body did adjust to it over time reducing to 4 sounds like a good idea and see if some of the panting seems to lessen

once you get your testing equipment that will help allot and you may want to adjust very slowly 1/4 unit is actually the most i would use for jesse now and many times it is smaller than that not easy to figure that out but we use the syringes with the half unit markings so that seems to make it easier

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 12:50 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Originally posted by jesse girl View Post

did she actually get 10 units per cycle that is alot to start for a smaller dog

once you get your testing equipment that will help allot and you may want to adjust very slowly 1/4 unit is actually the most i would use for jesse now and many times it is smaller than that not easy to figure that out but we use the syringes with the half unit markings so that seems to make it easier

NO I thank goodness new enough from the past reading other peoples posts years ago that 10u of Hunulin was a rahter high does for a small dog. So she started on 6u.
Yes on the meter I will be able to help much better. I was able to find the half mark syringes also. And I have seen that in a lot of dogs just 1/2 unit can make a huge difference. Again, in Vetsulin there was a bigger margin for dosage, at least for us. So this is a whole new thing with the humulin. Now however you have me wondering if I should only drop her to 5 units instead of 4!

**SandyL** · 06-27-2011, 02:56 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Tiggy started this crazy panting stuff a year and a half BEFORE she was ever diagnosed. I never adjusted her insulin because of it. She never does it in the mornings after her dose Just a mystery..,

Sandy

**Dany** · 06-27-2011, 03:40 PM

Re: "Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

Originally posted by tiggys grandma View Post

Tiggy started this crazy panting stuff a year and a half BEFORE she was ever diagnosed. I never adjusted her insulin because of it. She never does it in the mornings after her dose Just a mystery..,

Sandy

Oh I see, I miss understood the original post. But, this is exactly what this dog does. Very strange!

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"Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

"Tuesday" diagnosed 6/23 Panting issues!

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