Gretel is now our angel

[Patty]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Carolyn,
You have our support as well.

I don't have a ton of time right now but did a search for niacin and diabetes on the web. You might take a look through this link and do a search yourself for the impact on diabetes. What dosing did your vet recommend? http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/v...-b3-000335.htm

Patty

[k9diabetes]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

High triglycerides are a very common problem in mini Schnauzers so it is likely to be an uphill battle even though you are doing all the right things. And they may be behind her higher blood sugar.

Has she seen a specialist about this?

I am not very familiar with treatment for high triglycerides but I think there are some medications that can be tried. Eileen's Mildred was put on a very strict vegetarian diet for a while with good success. You might try doing some internet research on the topic and see what you can find. And then follow up with an internal medicine specialist if you can.

I know it sounds kind of crazy to research it yourself but sometimes people have literally found answers that vets didn't know about because they are too busy to research a single topic in depth.

If nothing else, it might help confirm for you that this comes often with the breed and how others are coping with it.

A big hug from me and a pat for Gretel from me,

Natalie

[Noodle]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

I wish I knew more about this issue and could offer advice. But you certainly have our support! I know one of the best things about this board is having a place to spill where you know everyone else gets what you are going through.

Thinking of you and Gretel - hugs from me & Noodle.

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

You guys always come through for me - what a blessing.

Patty, the vet recommended 200-250 mg. of niacin twice daily. I haven't followed your link yet, but later this evening I will, and thank you.

Natalie, Gretel hasn't seen a specialist because there just aren't any around here (we're in a very rural area). I think probably the closest would be at least 100 miles or more away. And I certainly don't think it's crazy at all to research things myself, in fact I was in the process of doing that when I found this forum!

I will say that our vet has made many phone calls to specialists on Gretel's behalf and has taken all their input into consideration every step of the way. I was aware about Eileen having such great success with an all veggie diet for Mildred. Not quite sure how it would work for Gretel because she's restricted from so many things due to the bladder stone issue.

The vet has admitted that Gretel is one of her more complicated patients....aren't we lucky! I would much rather gain notoriety in a better kind of way though.

I guess for now we'll continue on with the vet's suggestions and I will continue reading everything I can about the issues and pray for better results soon.

Thank you so much everyone - advice & hugs soooooo appreciated.

Carolyn

[CarolW]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Oh, Carolyn, you have our huge sympathies.

Kwali and Kumbi are showering down licks and wags from the Bridge to Gretel and to you, and I'm delivering Earthly hugs from down here alongside you.

I don't know if the links I just posted to Jaye's thread on Robbie would be any use to you, but you might want to take a look - on calming signals and the like. That would be for BG-testing, when you next try it again.

I do think Eileen had really spectacular success with Mildred and triglycerides; maybe, Eileen, you'd repeat a summary of that for Carolyn!

Lots of love, and you can count on our continuing support.

Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:56:42 (PDT)

[k9diabetes]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Bladder stones and vegetables definitely can be a problem.

I believe that Kramer was put on several medications for his high triglycerides... I will dig up that information in the forum. His were quite severe and he too was a mini Schnauzer.

It's great that the vet is consulting with specialists. And it sure couldn't hurt to try the other diet.

Will be back with Kramer's information...

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Here is Kramer's thread:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=555

I see they put him on a cholesterol lowering drug...

Kramer is 12 (yesterday was his birthday). He's been diabetic for almost 3 years. We test his blood regularly, and home cook for him. He has high cholesterol and triglycerides....severely high and we supplement him with every natural remedy for that (niacin, omegas, CoQ10 etc.) he also gets milk thistle and samE.

...

He had bloodwork this week and it has come back that his normally very high liver enzymes have doubled, and his normally severly high triglycerides have doubled as well. (I can't get numbers till tuesday because Monday is a holiday here in Canada).

In order to treat the triglycerides we would have to resort to a cholesterol lowering drug, which could have adverse effects on the already stressed liver. If the cholesterol is whats causing the high blood sugars, and the blood sugars are causing the liver enzymes, its a vicious cycle and we don't know where to begin.

cholesterol meds (lipidil, lopid etc.) . . . The vet in Brandon doing the prescribing didn't want to put him on the other one until she did more research on it so we put him back on Lipidil for the time being.

http://www.weir.net/~lglass/canine-hyperlipidemia.htm

Natalie

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Thanks to all of you for the wonderful advice and information - and of course the hugs too!

I will check out all the links you all were kind enough to send. It's been quite a day - most of it spent trying to research several health insurance issues , which is exhausting and frustrating, and then the rest of the day worrying about Gretel's problems. I'm really wiped out right now, but tomorrow's another day.

I'll keep you posted whenever there's anything new to report, or I'm ready to have another meltdown , whichever comes first!

Sending hugs back to all of you from Gretel and me!

Carolyn

[buddingartist]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Carolyn, if you do decide to give your baby niacin, I don't know if you are aware that there are 2 kinds of Niacin (regular and non flush), and unfortunately a difference in price.

I take 500 mg daily and last year, within 1/2 hour of taking the niacin, my whole body turned red, numb, and I could hardly speak. Hubby thinking I was having a stroke rushed me to emergency. They put me through all kinds of bloodwork and could not find the cause, released me and said to come back if the symptoms reappeared.

It was the next morning that I took another niacin and then realized that I had bought the regular by mistake. Needless to say I was quite embarrassed and never went back to the emergency. After talking with some people, I also realized that I am not he only one who suffered from such side effects.

I don't know if an animal would suffer from the same side effects but just though I'd share this.

By the way, my husband has an enlarged liver (not from drinking but an hereditary condition), takes Lipidil (as well as lipitor) and the tryglecerides don't really come down. When they wanted to up the dosage, he has asked a few doctors for a more scientific and thorough explanation and he still didn't get it.

Louise

[eileen]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

In December Mildred's high glucose levels as well as her stroke were attributed to her extremely high triglyceride level (3300).

Her vet immediately put her on an all veggie diet which when retested in about 3 weeks had brought it down to the low end of 'normal'.

Once recovered from her stroke and her glucose levels dropping back to where they should be she was acting like a puppy again.

At the time her vet also started her with a supplement called, Epakitin, which he said is used to treat kidney issues but is being found to also help lower triglyceride levels in our dogs.

She remains on the Epakitin today.

[buddingartist]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Eileen, can you elaborate on the <all veggie diet< please. What sort of vegetables, how much, cooked, raw or store bought?

Thank you
Louise

[eileen]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Eileen, can you elaborate on the <all veggie diet< please. What sort of vegetables, how much, cooked, raw or store bought?

Thank you
Louise

Hi Louise,

I'd be glad to elaborate....

Mil is not a veggie loving type dog but thankfully when this was all she was eating she did clean her plate.

Her vet didn't care what type of vegetable I used, just anything that I could get her to eat.

Her meals consisted of cooked squash and cooked broccolli all squashed together with plain pure pumpkin.

On this diet she dropped from 30 pounds down to 26 and then 24, which is a good weight for her.

After 3 weeks on this diet and retesting her triglyceride level her vet said I could add back in white fish, such as cod or haddock.....she HATES fish so that was a 'no go'.
I instead added boiled skinless, boneless chicken breast which she ate for a time before I finally needed to add in barley.

Her meals now are chicken, barley, pumpkin and squash.

When eating only vegetables her insulin needs dropped from about 13+ units down to 1-2u only.

[buddingartist]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Tks Eileen.

I know my Buddy's cholesterol are quite high 1140 last test but I have never been told about tryglecirides and I don't know if trygs are automatically high when the cholesterol are high.

I am still trying to put the weight back on Buddy so I'd be concerned about putting him on that diet. I will however keep that diet in mind. Amongst other medical problems, Buddy has cholestasis (sludge in the bile ducts) and the full dosage of the meds prescribed for it (ursodiol) made him so sick that we had to stop for a while. I have reintroduced slowly (I have to cut the pill in 8 pieces) and gradually increasing the amount.

[eileen]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Mil's cholesterol was also high at the same time but vet was much more concerned with her triglyceride levels as this sludge in her blood caused her to have a stroke.

You may want to have the specific test done to check for the triglyceride level.

For the short term that the veggie diet was needed to clear Mil of her high levels once back on her 'regular' diet she has gained some of her weight back.

Mil's gall bladder was removed back in 2005 as she was having serious issues.

[CoolGram]

Re: Mini Schnauzer Gretel

Good morning all! Here I am again, with another problem. Gretel's developing a real feeding problem and I really don't know what to make of it. Let me tell you what and how I've been feeding her first. Last week the vet decided to change her (gradually) from w/d to Royal Canin food. Presently I only have the dry Royal Canin, but she still had some canned and dry w/d left, so I'm blending the different foods as I'm easing her into the new food.

Along with her food she also gets one fish oil capsule, 5.5ml of tricitrate solution mixed with a little water, and now since last week she is to be getting niacin. All of this I mix in with her food.

However, she started to pick out the fish oil capsule and lay it beside her bowl, so I started to puncture it and just squirt it over the food and mix it in. In the last week or so she occasionally decides she doesn't want to eat all of her food in the morning, but after some encouragment from me she eventually would eat.

The last three days, she has totally turned up her nose at her morning feeding after eating maybe half of it (and appearing to inspect every bite that she did eat). I would then measure how much she ended up refusing to eat and measure out the same amount of just plain dry food, and she would eat that. Unfortunately that means that she isn't getting the entire amount of all the different supplements I put in her original bowl of food.

The really strange part to this story is that I can give her the exact same mixture for her evening meal and she eats it right down with no hesitation. I have been thinking that she is just tired of all these "extras" I've been adding to her food - I'm sure she can smell them and taste them and it's just getting to be too much and she doesn't like it. But then why would she eat it in the evening?????

Throughout all of this, her feedings have been moved further and further away from the time I want to feed her, because I've been giving her time, hoping that she'll eat all of it so that I can give her the full amount of insulin. I'm thinking that I probably should just give her a certain amount of time and no more, because I'm concerned if she realizes I'm going to jump through hoops to get her to eat something, she'll hold out till something better comes along and it will be a vicious cycle.

Anyway, whatever she doesn't eat, I measure what's left and decrease the amount of insulin - but that's tricky too, because her food has been mixed with water, it's not quite in the same form it was before water was added and it's hard to tell exactly how much she actually ate. And the other part of the problem is, if she doesn't eat it all, then she's not getting the full dose of her medicines and I don't know how else to get it in her - especially the niacin.

Oh, and that's another thing. Last evening when she ate her meal, afterward she scratched and scratched, rolled around the floor, acted restless, for about 3/4 of an hour after her feeding. I really think the niacin is causing that reaction and I don't like it at all and really don't think I want her on it. And I'm sure that's the thing she really hates because the first time I put it in her food whole, and she ate all the food and left the pill (it's in tablet form). I then hid it in a small bit of canned food and just tried to hand feed it to her and 3 times she spit it back out. I then just started to crush it into a powder and mix it with the food.

As you can see, I'm totally stumped and just don't know what to do. Yesterday morning I ended up in tears simply out of frustration. As it is, it takes about 10 minutes to prepare every meal and then to finally have it ready and watch her NOT want to eat it is so upsetting - especially knowing there are things in there that she really needs to bring her triglycerides down.

This has really not been a good week anyway. My 38 yr. old daugher had a diving accident and broke a bone in her neck. She's very, very fortunate in that it is a stable fracture, no surgery needed and thank God no paralysis, but she'll be wearing a neck brace for 6-12 weeks and can't drive, so I'm on call to help out with the grandkids. So as you can see, Gretel's issues are probably causing me more stress than they might have, if my nerves weren't already jangling.

I'm sorry this post is so long, but I really need some advice. My vet is out till Thursday and I'll be talking to her when she gets back, but I'm not even sure what she'll be able to come up with. Anyway, thanks so much for listening yet again.

Carolyn