Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

[Champion11]

Champ is our 11 year old Chesapeake Bay Retriever (80 lbs now, typically 95 lbs) who has just been diagnosed with diabetes. He is currently on the Rachael Ray Nutrish Zero Grain Chicken Dry food (1.5 cups) mixed with Solid Gold Green Beef Tripe (1/2 can) twice a day. After not eating much for 3-5 days prior to diagnosis, we are having success with this blend.

He has been put on 10 units of Vetsulin twice a day starting on 3/5 with blood glucose readings around 425. He has lost the use of his hind legs since last Friday 3/2 and cannot move around to use the bathroom etc. The vet is not informative on what this is caused by but says it could be neuropathy as it's common in diabetic cats but she's never seen it with a dog. They tested for ketones yesterday and they said it was positive but did not give me the actual #'s. They suggested hospitalization but also said may not be best for him given his age.

Questions-
-Any advice on the neuropathy? Is there anything more I can do that just regulating with insulin. Would love a full recovery of course but if he could just get to the bathroom on his own, it would be a major help considering his size.
-Can ketones be resolved without hospitalization? Can I test for these at home?

Any other advice is appreciated. It so hard seeing our active dog unable to move around and live life.

Thanks

[Judi]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

hi: we've had a few dogs around here rebound from the neuropathy. It wasn't fast but it happened.

Here is post from Victoria about Eddie: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/show...thy#post163648

edited to add: its important to give the "methyl" kind of b12 for this

[Raysaint]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Neuropathy is common with some dogs, and as blood sugar regulates, they usually slowly get their legs back.

As for regulation, please know that it takes time; weeks to months. Don't try and correct it fast. Dogs can handle high blood sugar for the long term.

As for ketones, to my knowledge, a dog would be hospitalized if the ketones were at a high level, and ketoacidosis was present.
Some ketones are normal and will slowly dissipate as blood sugar regulates.
Your vet should be willing to share numbers, and tell you what ketone level is considered dangerous.

And get a meter so you can check blood sugar at home. Many vets don't want you to, they want to maintain control and have you visit them all the time. Home testing is key to diabetes management.

[Champion11]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Thank you for the replies! I am feeling a little better with reading stories of success with neuropathy recovery with diabetes treatment. Especially after speaking with many people that consider it is "time to let nature take it's course" and say good-bye to Champ. If I buy the Methyl B-12, any advice on dosage for an 80lb dog?

Our vet said that the ketone levels indicate ketoacidosis and the typical treatment is hospitalization, however his age is a factor. Has anyone not done the hospitalization and still seen a recovery? The percentages of recovery I've found online are 65% recovery without hospitalization and 72% with hospitalization. Our vet was ok with starting with regular insulin treatments and retesting his urine after 48 hrs (tomorrow) to see if ketones were reduced.

[jesse girl]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

It seems like the larger dogs are more prone to hind leg weakness . Probably something to do with the nerves as you get farther back from the brain it may loose some of its communication causing the weakness . Just speculation on my part . As sugar improves so should the weakness but with nerves its usually a slow process regaining that mobility .

At 10 units the starting dose is a bit low to begin with . Now the one number at 425 tells you almost nothing as it is just one number at one moment in time . Six hours from then it could be 100 . Thats why we do complete curves ( multiple tests in a day ) to judge how injected insulin is doing and dose adjustments are based on the lowest number in a curve

[LizE]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Our vet said that the ketone levels indicate ketoacidosis and the typical treatment is hospitalization, however his age is a factor. Has anyone not done the hospitalization and still seen a recovery? The percentages of recovery I've found online are 65% recovery without hospitalization and 72% with hospitalization. Our vet was ok with starting with regular insulin treatments and retesting his urine after 48 hrs (tomorrow) to see if ketones were reduced.

My dog was older when diagnosed and had ketoacidosis. We did not hospitalize her because my vet does not offer overnight care and taking her elsewhere was cost prohibitive given the circumstances.

We were advised to start thinking about putting her down but I wanted to try to treat her long enough for my son to get home from school and say goodbye. I would take her in to the vet in the morning and afternoon for shots, hydration and blood work. They felt it was best for her to be go home during the day since it would be less stressful. This went on for several days.

Snickers ended up being very responsive to outpatient treatment and we got her blood sugar under control relatively quickly. She was still a sick dog for quite a while. I think it takes a long time to recover from being so sick, more so in old age.

Flash forward 27 months and she is still with me. My vet was surprised she pulled through and was relieved that another undiagnosed problem (that might have brought on the diabetes) didn't emerge.

I hope you have a similar success story. The diabetes diagnosis is a tough one to take especially with a senior dog.

[Champion11]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Thank you again for the responses! In response to the comment regarding complete curves, do you do these curves daily? Or how often are they done to get the full picture. I had been advised to wait 7 days after we began the insulin treatments to perform a glucose curve.

I am so relieved to hear a success story in an older dog with kesoacidosis and recovery without hospitalization. I understand a lot of it lies in the health of the dog in general. Aside from Champ's lack of ability to walk on his own, you would hardly be able to tell he was sick. He hides it well. I am planning to take him in for hydration again in the next day or so. I am hoping that combined with regulated insulin treatments will help nurse him back to health. Any other recommendations?

Thanks so much!!

[jesse girl]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

curves are usually done once a week. Some vets wait as long as 2 weeks

[farrwf]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Champ is our 11 year old Chesapeake Bay Retriever (80 lbs now, typically 95 lbs) who has just been diagnosed with diabetes.
He has been put on 10 units of Vetsulin twice a day starting on 3/5 with blood glucose readings around 425. He has lost the use of his hind legs since last Friday 3/2

Questions-
-Any advice on the neuropathy? Is there anything more I can do that just regulating with insulin. Would love a full recovery of course but if he could just get to the bathroom on his own, it would be a major help considering his size.
-Can ketones be resolved without hospitalization? Can I test for these at home?

Any other advice is appreciated. It so hard seeing our active dog unable to move around and live life.
Thanks

• It's likely the neuropathy will subside as his blood / glucose number comes down. We've seen many pooches come in with some level of diabetic neuropathy impacting their mobility, and I can't think of any that didn't recover and regain use of their legs.
• You can get some strips to test his urine for ketones at almost any pharmacy.

Champ's only on his 2nd day of insulin, it may be a little while before you see a change. Good Luck with your guy!

[Champion11]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Thank you for the well wishes for Champ! He seems to be perkier today than in the past few days so I'm hoping he's starting to feel a bit better. I"m working on being patient with his progress I have two questions today.

-I'm going to buy the GNC METHYL B-12 2500 MCG. Any idea what the recommended dosage for dogs is? He's 80lbs roughly right now. I asked my vet but won't hear back for a day or so. He's also on amoxicillin for 5 more days for a UTI so hoping this won't have adverse affects on the B-12...

-Is there a thread on food recommendations I can reference? My vet gave me a print out saying it is ideal to find a food with 5-15% fiber of the dry matter and how to calculate that. It also says to look for foods with insoluble fiber content rather than soluble fiber which is opposite of what I read about "good" versus "bad" dog foods in general. Any brand advice? Champ is easy to please if he likes the food but isn't eating any dry food without some wet added (using Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe as a topper currently).

Thanks!!

[jesse girl]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

the thread Eddie bear maybe helpful

you will have to look through i believe to find what Antonia was using as far as B-12

[Raysaint]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Food should have both types of fiber, both serve an important purpose, just like in humans.
The link below will let you input moisture and any of the other content percentages, to get the dry matter percentage. That's what you need to compare foods. The food labels will have the analysis percentages. Plug them in and compare fat/fiber/protein.

http://fnae.org/dmb.html

[Champion11]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Thank you for the explanation on the fiber and the link to the calculator. That is very helpful!

We are about to run out of his current dry food today, should I stick with the typical transition process to a new food and buy the current food to start mixing first? How soon did you switch over to a more diabetic friendly diet after diagnosis? Champ wasn't eating well upon initial diagnosis two weeks ago so I've stuck with what he will eat so far. His appetite has much improved over the last week though.

His blood sugar readings before meals have actually increased over the past few days despite the 10 units of petsulin we have been giving him. I did a 6 hour reading to check and see his level yesterday afternoon as well. The vet wants to do a curve next week before changing. I emailed to see if they thought differently based on these numbers from yesterday. Any thoughts?

Yesterday
7:30am - 609
2:30 pm -487
7:30pm - 597

Today
7:30 am - 695

UPDATE**I spoke with the vet this morning and Champ had major reductions in his ketone levels just after 3 days of insulin treatment (80 down to 15). Great news! Also reported back my numbers from the last two days and she suggested upping his dose to 13 units of Petsulin and doing a curve next week. Also suggested leaving his food as is for now. Feeling a bit of relief after a rough past 24 hrs. **

Champ is 80lbs. Eating 2 C Rachael Ray Zero Grain Chicken and Sweet Potato Dry food mixed with 1/2 C Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe wet food - 2 x a day

[Raysaint]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

A normal starting dose is 1/2 a unit per kilogram (2.2 lbs.). Your dog weighs 36 kg, which would be 18 units. 13 units is probably still low.
Curious as to how your vet come up with the starting dose.

As for a food change, it's to get more fiber I assume (the fat and protein of your current food isn't too bad, on a dry matter). Being the dog is early in the diagnosis and sugars are high, I might change food now and get it all done, while you're just starting sugar regulation.
If you wait until his sugars are regulated, which could take weeks (and that's OK), then a new food will probably change his sugar numbers and you'll have to tweak dose again for a few weeks.

Others may weigh in on my suggestion.

[CraigM]

Re: Champ - just diagnosed and so worried!

Just a reminder that many think a starting insulin dosage is 0.2 units per pound. So, a 80 pound pup might be started at around 16 units. A few have required less, but I think most end up with a higher dosage.



Edit: looks like Raysaint and I had the same thought about starting dosage at the same time.