Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Cataracts and development of ketones are really the biggest concern with high blood sugar. Many dogs never get below 300's for whatever reason and still do just fine. Organ damage is not a concern and dogs can take high blood sugar much better than humans. Of course, when you have a dog who has been regulated and then suddenly not, you want to get to the bottom of it. I just wouldn't worry about damage in the meantime as much as if it was a person. We humans are delicate by comparison

Amy - I know this thread got long fast. If you saw what I wrote earlier on, its all timed out with when he started not acting right. weight gain, sluggish, tired, depression, was lethargic, was vomitting first 2 days, sometimes shaking in back legs.. and now insulin resistance. So I am at a loss, just seems like thyroid issue made sense.

I know i was lucky that I had him in a range of 125-175 for 1 straight year. I am just concerned that running over 400 for a week, or however long it takes to get the cause fixed. Won't cause cataracts or blindness to pop up. 1 year of really hard work would be flushed down the drain.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Also, wouldnt too much insulin lead to hypoglycemia?

I decided to try and cut his food in half, and give him 16 units instead of 18.

In answer to your question, sometimes when overdosed the liver can shoot out stored glucose to save the dog from low bgs. If testing were to catch it it might look like the bgs going steadily down to a point where the body senses danger and then a sharp spike.

So sometimes spot checks only catch the sharp spike.

My gut tells me there is something else at play here be it thyroid or even a UTI, but to be on the safe side I would monitor him enough over nite to be sure that cut in food and only a two unit drop in insulin doesn't backfire.

Hang in there, Tara

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

I know i was lucky that I had him in a range of 125-175 for 1 straight year. I am just concerned that running over 400 for a week, or however long it takes to get the cause fixed. Won't cause cataracts or blindness to pop up. 1 year of really hard work would be flushed down the drain.

From what I've read there doesn't seem to be a whole lot you can count on or control with regards to blindness. You either get lucky or not and some dogs just lose it seemingly overnight even with good regulation.

Tara

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

In answer to your question, sometimes when overdosed the liver can shoot out stored glucose to save the dog from low bgs. If testing were to catch it it might look like the bgs going steadily down to a point where the body senses danger and then a sharp spike.

So sometimes spot checks only catch the sharp spike.

My gut tells me there is something else at play here be it thyroid or even a UTI, but to be on the safe side I would monitor him enough over nite to be sure that cut in food and only a two unit drop in insulin doesn't backfire.

Hang in there, Tara

Hi Ruby,

Yea, today for instance my girlfriend monitored him every 2 hours to try and see what is going on with the BG levels. He never dropped below 380 all day, so I dont think its liver/glucose.. but I did forget that could do it. He hasnt been peeing excessively, right now 2-3 times a day. So figured it wouldnt be UTI.

Your right in other response, I am hoping it doesnt backfire. My thinking was, that hes not going to bathroom as much, hes gaining weight.. basically body is just not metabolizing anything. I thought it would be better to cut the source of the issue, the food for now and only slightly reduce insulin. I feel like I am just piling sugar into his body and nothing is keeping up. I thought the logic is solid, but I know that doesnt always equal a logical outcome.

I also tried swapping the insulin for a new bottle, thinking the insulin may have gotten contaminated. No dice.

[amydunn19]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Blindness is kind of a crap shoot. There are folks that do every prevention thing possible, and their dogs still go blind. Some never go blind.

I think you are on track with something causing resistance like thyroid. I am concerned a bit about the constipation a bit. Is he uncomfortable? Any digestive issues? G. I. Issues are also pretty common with diabetics.

You guys are doing great - hopefully your vet will be able to get you answers soon.

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Blindness is kind of a crap shoot. There are folks that do every prevention thing possible, and their dogs still go blind. Some never go blind.

I think you are on track with something causing resistance like thyroid. I am concerned a bit about the constipation a bit. Is he uncomfortable? Any digestive issues? G. I. Issues are also pretty common with diabetics.

You guys are doing great - hopefully your vet will be able to get you answers soon.

Well, I got a phone call that the vet got the flu and is still out. So, they are hoping he will be in monday. Which makes it 1 week that he has had these symptoms, and no start of treatment. The assistant was kind enough to read to me the results of the test. She was reluctant, but I begged. He has low sodium levels, his BG's were high (but due to vomiting and random food intake night before), his T4 levels came back very low. So I guess that is it, unless the vet himself sees something more. She mentioned if "she were a vet" she would start him on soloxine, but the vet needs to review the whole test.

I also experimented with the food, I was very concerned about the resistance to insulin. I did as I mentioned, and his BG's dropped to 158 this morning. So thats good news. I also believe that having switched him to dry only did something, I believe it uncovered the issue. I think the canned food allowed him to digest and get regulated for the time being.

Let me ask this guys, is it possible diabetes was a result of the impending thyroid issue? Thinking back, he had low T4 when diagnosed with diabetes. With that thinking, how does that affect things when his metabolism picks up? Any ideas guys? Not saying it will fix his diabetes but, will this possible put him in a good place? Or will this make things that much harder? look forward to all your feedback again, just trying to make it through to Monday (hopefully).

Thanks for all your support!

Jason

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Hi Jason... My dog, Lily, is both diabetic and hypothyroid. She was insulin resistant for 5 months before we found out about her thyroid problem. During that time her BG was consistently > 400. She had very high cholesterol and triglyceride levels and thinning hair. It was a nightmare for us during that time. Once on soloxine we were able to get her BG to acceptable ranges and her overall health improved drastically.

It sounds like you are on the right track in regard to the hypothyroidism diagnosis. Once on soloxine you could see a dramatic change in your dogs metabolism and maybe a decrease in insulin requirements.

Mike

http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/hypothyroid.htm

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Hi Jason... My dog, Lily, is both diabetic and hypothyroid. She was insulin resistant for 5 months before we found out about her thyroid problem. During that time her BG was consistently > 400. She had very high cholesterol and trygliceride levels and thinning hair. It was a nightmare for us during that time. Once on soloxine we were able to get her BG to acceptable ranges and her overall health improved drastically.

It sounds like you are on the right track in regard to the hypothyroidism diagnosis. Once on soloxine you could see a dramatic change in your dogs metabolism and maybe a decrease in insulin requirements.

Mike

http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/hypothyroid.htm

Hi Mike,

Well, sounds like I am joining your camp of the fortunate . I guess I was lucky with regulation then, cause 1 year ago his blood work did have slightly lower T4 (must have been a slow progression). I had him in a good range all the while.

Did you notice your dog (lily) have similar symptoms?

Vomiting not long after eating (has subsided after less food), at times shakes mostly noticeable in rear, to lazy to stand, reluctant to climb stairs, lethargic at times (not as bad), insulin resistance (looks like canned food will get me through till he gets treatement next week). Panting after 5 minute walk. Excessive sleeping, picky eater unless I add canned food. Weight gain.

I am concerned about weakness in legs, can't get up/down stairs ok. Hopefully that will disappear?

Any recommendation when treatment starts? Cut insulin in half? Assuming they will give even less thyroid meds to start? Same food amount? I know I am back to square one, like having a new dog to regulate all over. Trying to figure out best way to transition into this. Plus, I have to work, so I fear leaving him home so as I am now be cautious here.

How long she have diabetes and hypothyroid together now? Hows her vision been? Any noticeable change after treatment?

I am sorry for all these questions, this is new and I want to become as much an expert as I can.


Thanks for the link, i'll check that out as well.

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Hi Mike,

Well, sounds like I am joining your camp of the fortunate . I guess I was lucky with regulation then, cause 1 year ago his blood work did have slightly lower T4 (must have been a slow progression). I had him in a good range all the while.

Did you notice your dog (lily) have similar symptoms?

Vomiting not long after eating (has subsided after less food), at times shakes mostly noticeable in rear, to lazy to stand, reluctant to climb stairs, lethargic at times (not as bad), insulin resistance (looks like canned food will get me through till he gets treatement next week). Panting after 5 minute walk. Excessive sleeping, picky eater unless I add canned food. Weight gain.

I am concerned about weakness in legs, can't get up/down stairs ok. Hopefully that will disappear?

Any recommendation when treatment starts? Cut insulin in half? Assuming they will give even less thyroid meds to start? Same food amount? I know I am back to square one, like having a new dog to regulate all over. Trying to figure out best way to transition into this. Plus, I have to work, so I fear leaving him home so as I am now be cautious here.

How long she have diabetes and hypothyroid together now? Hows her vision been? Any noticeable change after treatment?

I am sorry for all these questions, this is new and I want to become as much an expert as I can.

Thanks for the link, i'll check that out as well.

Lily has been diabetic for 3 years. We think she was hypothyroid prior to that. She went blind with cataracts 5 months after being diagnosed with diabetes and has had successful cataract surgery. We're certain the cataracts formed because her BG levels were > 400 for at least 5 months. Her vision is great now. I give her eye drops daily and she visits the opthalmologist every 6 months. You may not have to worry about that because Jude's BG levels have been good up until recently

Her thyroid symptoms were hair loss, dry skin, dark belly skin pigmentation, high cholesterol, high triglycerides and insulin resistance. She also had weakness in her hind legs and was very lethargic, but that could have been diabetes related.

When she was insulin resistant she was up to 30 units of Novolin N. Once diagnosed with hypothyroidism and on soloxine, her IMS backed her off to 15 units and she settled in at around 18 units. She is currently on a mix of 16 units Novolin N and 4 units Novolin R.

Mike

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Well, I got some possible bad news. The vet reviewed the blood work, hes definitely hypothyroid. However, he feels the dog may have a liver issue as well. I was referred to a specialist/internist who I just made an appointment with for tomorrow morning. I can't help but think the worst, I don't understand what is going on. When thinking back to how he was monday-tuesday, its night and day to how he is now. Hes just about back to how he was prior to the incident, so I'm trying to find hope in that. Then hear, he may have a liver issue.

I don't have the copy of the blood work in hand, doesn't really matter I guess. I'm really just lost for words, and just really upset over the possibilities.

[Judi]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

several dogs on here have had liver issues, don't give up hope. Some have taken milk thistle or sam e (which has milk thistle) to improve their livers a bit.

Once you get him on medicine for his thyroid you will be able to get his diabetes under control again.

I think part of it is aging dogs and since ours have/had diabetes, we are at the vet more often, monitoring them more often, and catch things sooner.

hang in there. Judi

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

several dogs on here have had liver issues, don't give up hope. Some have taken milk thistle or sam e (which has milk thistle) to improve their livers a bit.

Once you get him on medicine for his thyroid you will be able to get his diabetes under control again.

I think part of it is aging dogs and since ours have/had diabetes, we are at the vet more often, monitoring them more often, and catch things sooner.

hang in there. Judi

Thanks Judi. That is comforting. When you think liver, you think oh no. I am a bit over active myself, my mind went to dark places automatically when the vet was going through the results and just reading on and on all the elevated levels... alt, bilirubin, low blood cell counts (red?), alk... etc etc.. and I just spaced out. I was all locked in on the thyroid and ready with a plan, then this hits.

I did notice a theme of milk thistle, never questioned or looked into it. Thank you for that recommendation.

I just have to try and keep positive, I am trying. I feel as though I have been working real hard to keep him in a good place, and to fail now after only a year would be devastating.

[jaycapz]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

Ok guys, I am back. So $760 later, 2 blood work ups and an ultra sound. The internist/specialist did a pretty thorough job on jude. So hes definitely hypothyroid. As for the vomiting which lasted 24 hours, and since he has slowly returned to his former self. The vet believes he suffered a mild pancreatitus incident. The ultrasound showed nothing out of the norm for a diabetic, his liver and pancreas do look a little swollen. He also had a mass behind his kidney, but its just a structure that needs monitoring. His cholestorol was 1500, trigs, bilirubin, alt...all very high but all seem to be result of thyroid being untreated. He also provided recommendations for a new diet.

Thursday the vet expects to have blood back, if all else looks good we will have a script for thyroid meds and start working on getting regulated once again.

As you all who have read my thread here know im crazed about his vision. The vet did a check, said for a dog with diabetes for 13+ months his eyes look great so far. Said to keep up doing what your doing. So I'll keep him on ocu-glo and try not to change to much there.

Thank you for all who have chimed in. I'll probably be doing some research on the thyroid here, and just making sure I am familiar with symptoms, best practices etc. I feel much much better that my buddy is OK, not so great about that vet bill... but its money well spent providing the dr is competent and gives the right direction.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

I strongly second Judi's thoughts on this probably not being that bad. I think from a vet's perspective they may not take into account how far reaching the effects of diabetes can be...then add thyroid to that. Many dogs have been here and either recovered from liver issues or certainly been able to manage them.

You can search for Barb and Abby's thread as they dealt with liver issues.

Tara

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Need Advice - Dog Sick / Diabetes Now Unregulated

here's a link to her thread. You ul do also reach out to her through a private message.

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2819