Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

[bichons9]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Can you please post when you are feeding and injecting insulin?
What food, how much?
I.m confused with your post injecting at 2 pm?
Most people feed and inject in the am and pm.
Thankyou

I am sorry..The 2pm was an error..It was 2 :20 AM!!! We were in a panic state on 8/20. I know that most don't include their chart here but you are invited to look at what was going on 8/20..After weeks of erratic BG results, it got bad on 8/20...and because I do not keep "Regular" insulin on board, I was reluctant but gave Suzie 1/2 dose VETSULIN..As it turns out..I believe the VETSULIN vile was probably the issue..Being near the end of the vile on day 39, we also neglected to notice EXPIRATION DATE was 9/2019. However, Suzie will be checked out by DVM to make sure she is ok. The link is below if you wish to see our dilemma on 8/20. Suzie eats Rubie Stewbie 2X/day and receives small piece chicken breast+ 3 green beans if BG gets low. She receives her VETSULIN 25 minutes after each meal at 6am and 6 pm. Her BG tests are performed 7-8X per day since 8/2017 since VETSULIN is very unpredictable in Suzie's case.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Yes it seems the new bottle solved the problem
Thanks for clarifying
I.m getting older and my eyes play tricks lol. Its not my eyes this time!

[bpcooper14]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

We've been having a lot of high highs and low lows recently with Ace. Still on Vetsulin but can't seem to dial in the correct dosage with the very and the BG curves. I'm starting to wonder if a switch to another insulin might be warranted. I'm aware we'd be starting from scratch basically.....

[jesse girl]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Big swings in blood sugar can be to much insulin or balance between food and insulin can be a problem . Other factors like EPI , cushings and other challenges can have an affect

A change in insulin can get you to reset the process if struggling . NPH would be the next logical insulin to use

It may not be completely starting over because you already have an understanding what going on and you maybe able to move the process a bit faster

Do you have any recent curves and has regulation ever been good ?

[bpcooper14]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Here is a link to the Google sheet I started with today's readings. The vet has us using a freestyle libre to monitor his levels because it's been difficult getting a prick to get enough blood for a curve at home.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t?usp=drivesdk

[jesse girl]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Thats a substantial drop but not an off the cliff type of curve

You do know insulin is working just not good balance

I think it would be worth a try with NPH . If you continue to see high fastings during the regulation process and cant get that to stabilize you maybe able to give a short or fast acting insulin at mealtime with NPH. You may have to reduce NPH if you go down that road because the fast acting will carry the load of clearing excess sugar

I have done this with jesse mostly in the early stages of the disease just to keep her out of very high readings but I wanted to find a more stable process which ended with just giving her one meal a day to eliminate for part of the day the food equation which solved the problem and gave a much more stable outcome for her .



If you have any questions just ask

[bpcooper14]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Now here is where things get really strange. This morning his level was 128 on the libre and 211 with the alpha track monitor. We've had some issues with being super low in the morning and other mornings being high with no change in food or schedule. The vet is just as confused as I am. And my dog is in Virginia with my family and I'm in Tennessee because I started a new job so I'm getting information through the phone, not firsthand.

[Raysaint]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

With some dogs, and humans, fastings may not be consistent. I check my dog's fasting every morning and record it.

I asterisk any fasting I deem "high", more than I like. Anything over 250. He'll have 6 or 7 of those a month. Possible rebound overnite, or just because. Diabetes is strange.
When it is high, 300 or more, he seems to correct more by nadir time; by midday he can be down to 160.

His other fastings can range from 90 - 216 on a monthly basis. That's what I expect now, and I'm good with it.

I guess you could experiment with food and timing with Vetsulin, or give NPH a try. If you switch, give it some time, don't expect improvements in the first week. You may still have to experiment with food after a few weeks if improvement doesn't happen. There's no silver bullet.

[bpcooper14]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Thanks for the info. With him also having EPI we've been pretty particular with his feedings and that part of his health has been fairly stable. With the diabetes acting up, we're going to remove as many variables as possible and try to regulate that more consistently. Starting with tonights meal, we're going to just feed him kibble. We're going to remove the fat free cottage cheese, chicken and sweet potato and slightly increase the kibble to compensate. My hope from a scientific point of view is that fewer variables will give us a better look at what we are dealing with. If it looks like the food needs to be changed to help stabilize the highs and lows, then we can do that and look at slowly adding back the elements of his diet that have helped us to keep the EPI in check and the weight on.

[bichons9]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

It's been awhile..still on Vetsulin..HATE IT. My husband is on his way right now to get Novolin 70/30...Terrible weeks..Suzie has anemia and high BG's..DVM's don't know why anemia or high BG's but labs except HCT and PCT good... All drugs ineterfere with each other so had to stop many..Now, hoping the pepcid does not interfere with the insulin...Please look at her chart..UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

[jesse girl]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Its a pretty large imbalance and lots of it looks like rebound to me spiking off a low . There are some really good days but they are far in between . I had similar numbers with jesse early on until we found what worked for her . It could be to much insulin , imbalance with food and insulin ,a medical condition or medications .

With big swings in blood sugar I am not sure 70/30 would be my first choice and i would go with just N as the fast acting part may continue the big drops which possibly lead to big spikes

Not sure if this is a recommendation from your vet to match up in similarity to vetsulin which maybe not the way to go but its up to you . All I can do is give an opinion and I have been surprised something worked or something did not work on occasion

I have seen dogs with not great regulation and did just fine . Especially smaller dogs for some reason . Hope your plan has a good outcome

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

70/30 insulin will start working fast in 10 to 20 minutes

changing insulins is tricky starting all over

for a 9 lb dog x .25 is 2.25 units twice a day

i would start off with 2.25 units and work up to avoid any large drops and test frequently

[sibhus]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Thought id chime in as ive been using Novolin 70 30 for a month now. I actually switched from Novolin N over to Novolin 70-30 about a month ago and have had great success with it. In my case my dog is a one time eater which results in a huge spike which the N just cant bring down. I first started mixing R with N as 10-90 and then 20-90 and ended up with a 30-70 bias and then just switched to the Novolin 70 30. The N also resulted in a huge variation between the maxima and minima reading of my dogs curve of about 200 points. With the 70 30 it is reduced to about 80 points between his maxima to minima, so his curve is significantly flatter. Also unlike many on this site, im still using regular dog food (Blue Buffalo adult) with high carbs which contributes to this spike which the 70-30 can regulate.

I cant upload my curve as I have a thorough 2 week plot using the Libre system but noticed with the 70 30, a dual nadir, in that the r portion starts dropping one hour after administration and the first nadir occurs at the 2 hour mark and as someone noted it is a prominent spike. The second nadir then occurs about 4.5 hours later due to the N or 70 portion.

Ive spent a lot of time reading diabetic articles and it does seem vetsulin was modeled after Humilin 70 30 to address the post meal spike that occurs in dogs.

[bichons9]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Thanks to all of you..will send frank for Novolin N tomorrow just in case..DVM's know NOTHING!!! I receive no guidance from DVM's and MERCK claims that they will AGAIN CONSULT MY DVM'S WHICH IS A JOKE...HAVE DONE THIS FOR LAST 2 YEARS. nOT KNOWING CAUSE OF ANEMIA PUT HER ON SUFULCRATE AND PET-TINIC WHICH SPIKED THE BG BIG TIME (IN CASE OF GI BLEED) NOT EVIDENT. NOW HCT WENT FROM 24.1..24.9 AND YESTERDAY 31.5...so it's regenerative. I ASKED IF 2-3 HOURS OF TOENAIL BLEEDING COULD HAVE CAUSED THIS-DOUBTFUL.ANYWAY, I DID WONDER ABOUT DECREASING INSULIN AND DID BUT RAISED HER BG. I have researched all days and nights and get all negative results. Suzie usually had high dinner BG..Now is 558 @ 2:30am .never any ketones. I'd like to go back to Lantus but no one selling at reasonable low prices lately. My DVM does not know how to use Novolin 70/30..only uses NPH...may have to go to university if no one can guide us to help Suzie...DVM wondered about Cushings but I had 3 Bichons treated for Cushings...Suzie has had no increase in water or urination and normal Alkaline Phosphatase?Liver enz normal,,kidney labs normal. I guess now i'll try to research if there is a relationship between anemia and high BG?? Thanks for your advice all..any further info will be greatly appreciated. I asked tech if artificially high glucose was different from diabetes related since no ketones..can't get answer. In addition I searched for the opposite of "Dawn phenomenon" where dinner BG highest rather than morning..no findings?? Thanks again.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

[bichons9]

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30

Jessie Girl..I have regular and now 70/30..I don't know dosing if giving r with nph..I don't know dosing with 70/30 either. DVM doesn't know.Allivet is over nighting me another vial of Vetsulin but have opened a new vial today.I see instructions above on 70/30 I think..The DVM's don't take all of this (except anemia) seriously because she remains asymptomatic and no ketones. As a HCP, I only know human DM..not in animals.