Discussion of glucosamine

[Bagel's Mom]

OH DEAR>

I was researching the WD food and found THIS article...
What do you know about this??
Bagel has taken Synovia glucosamine for years and has one every day!
Could THIS be the culprit?

Also- NEVER give supplements containing GLUCOSAMINE as this nutrient must be avoided by diabetics because Glucosamine blocks the formation of insulin. Also DO NOT feed your a diabetic pet any pet foods containing GLUCOSAMINE. Many 'Senior Foods' have this added now to help aging pets with arthritis and joint mobility. It is a good thing for arthritic and older dogs but NOT if they are diabetic! In March 2001 issue of PREVENTION Magazine tells more of the dangers for diabetics and this supplement both in HUMANS AND ALL ANIMALS. It is shown taking Glucosamine if you are Diabetic can trigger INSULIN RESISTANCE. This means that the body stops recognizing insulin and, as a result sugar in the blood can build up to a dangerous level. Another online article on this is found here at Nutrition Science News

[k9diabetes]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

There's been a debate for years over whether glucosamine affects blood sugar in a diabetic - person or dog. I can say that Chris took glucosamine for years as a veterinary supplement (Cosequin) and it did not affect his blood sugar.

My personal feeling after seeing a number of dogs take it is that, at least for most dogs, it doesn't affect blood sugar.

Some supplements have a lot of other stuff in them, sometimes even sugar, so those other ingredients may be the culprit when blood sugar does go up if they are present. We tried an off-the-shelf brand we got at Petco and it did raise Chris' blood sugar.

Note that reference says it blocks "the formation of insulin" - not sure what the source of that information is but a diabetic dog doesn't make insulin any more so that's definitely not a problem.

I would always look to the source of their information with these kinds of statements - whether they are based on referenced authoritative sources.

[pat3332]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

I had seen that before at other web sites. In my case I felt there were several things to consider.

The breed and size of the dog. Can I get the glucose levels under control while giving the glucosamine/chondroitin? What is the source of the glucosamine/chondroitin?

1. Bailey is a 95-96 pound Rottweiler and that breed is known to be prone to hip displaysia. I have always controlled my Rottweilers feeding to keep them at a normal weight. A lot of misguided people have had the idea that the bigger their Rottweiler the better, like it's a competition. All large breed dogs have more stress on their hips and need their weight controlled. Since I feel that the Glucosamine/Chondroitin helps my joints, I've always given it to my Rottweilers also. Since with Bailey I'm concerned both about his diabetes and hip displaysia, as long as I can get his glucose levels under control, I plan on including the glucosamine/chondroitin. Diabetes is terrible, but can be controlled. If you've never seen a large dog with displaysia, it's heart breaking.

2. I also have a small dog and although I'm not as concerned about her developing hip problems, I also control her weight. If she was diabetic however, since she's not prone to the hip problems my Rottweiler is, I'd probably feel that I could be more conservative about the glucosamine/chondroitin.

3. The Orijen dog food that I give him has Glucosamine: (min) 1400 mg/kg and Chondroitin: (min) 1000 mg/kg. These amounts come from the natural food sources and are not added chemically.

4. Orijen has won the Best Dog Food award from the Glycemic Research Institute for the past 3 years, so they don't seem to be too concerned about the amount of glucosamine/chondroitin in the food.

5. Being in the medical field for most of my life, I've read enough conflicting articles, research papers and personal opinions from so called experts to make me skeptical about most of them. Read one that's bad today, wait a month and someone else will claim to disprove it. I've chosen to believe the good studies about chocolate and coffee, but most of the time, you just have to look at all the different factors and make the decision you're most comfortable with.
Just do your testing and if the glucose level goes down or stays the same: Good. Glucose level goes up: Bad.

Just my own opinion and yet again overly long post. Never use one word when you can use two.

Pat

[Bagel's Mom]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

I have been giving her Synovi G3 soft chews for several years. before diabetes she was about 8 pounds overweight...Now she is a steady 33 pounds- a small beagle with a Basset grandmother-

The label says consult a Vet before giving to dogs with diabetes or any metabolic condition causing hyperglycemia....

She was taking Synovi before she was diabetic. She had back surgery at 4...( almost 11 now) and when she was heavy she had trouble with one particular back leg. She walks fine now- I wonder if she even needs it.

There are a lot of ingredients in these- including Omega 3s...sucrose is way at the bottom of the list of ingredients....

and yes, when I googled Should Diabetic dogs take glucosamine I got a lot of vet articles saying no...
Left a message with the locals today. He will call me Monday....maybe I won;t give it to her today or tomorrow and see if anything changes?

Would love for that to be a reason she is still high...
;-)

[Patty]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

Sande,
I think that's the best experiment. Stop the supplement and see if you notice any changes. Keep us posted!
Patty

[k9diabetes]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

When I search it, I don't find any scientific articles or very many veterinary articles that state it as a fact. VetInfo is the only one I've seen so far. It also says fish oil raises blood sugar, something we did not experience with Chris either.

I found one study in nondiabetic dogs that said it did not raise blood sugar levels.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...avma.236.2.183

And I found a lot of anecdotal articles without much backing them up.

I was involved in this same discussion on a canine diabetes forum six years ago. With some mention then that it depended on the type of glucosamine product used... and I don't recall which one was felt to be okay and which one wasn't.

I think the most accurate answer is that no one knows. My understanding is that even in people they aren't certain that it causes problems.

Some resistance to the effect of the insulin wouldn't necessarily mean high blood sugar so much as cause them to need a higher dose of insulin to get the same level of control.

We actually discussed glucosamine here before too - it came up on the first page of my Google search!

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28006

In the end, if you think you don't need it, it's always best to eliminate it as a variable.

Chris had some significant arthritis and we used both Metacam and glucosamine. Metacam in particular (an NSAID) improved his arthritis and helped level out his blood sugar, presumably because it reduced inflammation.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

If Bagel's cortisol levels are above normal, that acts as an anti-arthritis treatment in and of itself. It's an extra dose of steroids.

One of the unfortunate side affects for some dogs of treating Cushing's disease is that arthritis that was contained by the high cortisol levels gets worse when treatment for Cushing's disease brings the cortisol down to a normal level.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Webcast on Canine Diabetes Nov. 17

This was posted in a conversation back in 2004...

http://www.ukmicentral.nhs.uk/therap...lucosamine.pdf

I wasn't able to find the rest of the conversation - the forum had a hack at one point and a lot of information was lost. As I recall, some thought the hydrochloride versus a sulfate (I think that was it) made a difference. We used Cosequin... not sure which one that was.

I have some Dasequin for cats which shows it as glucosamine hydrochloride, sodium chondroitin sulfate, and avocado/soybean unsaponifiables powder - no idea what that is!

Natalie

[pat3332]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

Yep, try with and without and see if it goes up. Also, be sure to Google human sites. I found some good ones including Mayo Clinic and the National Institutes of Health. Apparently there are different types of supplements and one has no affect on the glucose level and one does. I have found very few vets that no anything about nutrition and supplements, which is one reason I ended up here.

At the end of the day, you have to decide what you're comfortable with and what you think works best for your dog. I'm still trying to figure that out. Bailey's still put out because I won't share my pizza crust any more.

Pat

[Bagel's Mom]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

almost choked on my pizza crust as I was reading this! HA

Tonight before dinner her BGs were 225...haven't been that low in a couple of weeks...

I was reading about rolling the insulin very slowly instead of fast...and I thought hmmm I have been kinda fast??? So I was very slow in rolling it this morning....

So who knows?

Was a Lysodren day
slow rolling of the insulin
held my head the right way?

A person could go MAD trying to figure this stuff out....
I didn't give her the glucosamine tonight.....we'll see if those good scores hang in there tomorrow...
thanks for all the ideas and reading links...We DO educate ourselves here!!
Sande

[pat3332]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

I do the same thing Sande. Am I rolling it too fast? Should I be holding the bottle up & down, sideways, does it matter? I've even laid it on its side on the counter and rolled it with one hand so it rolls smoother. Always second guessing myself and wondering if it's something I'm doing that's making him jump around.

I'll finally get 2-3 good readings in a row and start getting excited, then he goes off the rails again. Sometimes he goes up at the first check after a meal and the next time it doesn't happen until the 2nd check. Sometimes it goes up after eating, then the next time he eats it will go down. But we'll get there.

I'm beginning to think he really feels fine and is just having fun messing with my head.

Hang in there and don't get down. Lots of good help here.

[AlisonandMia]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

And then there is this: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...7/3013802.htm?

(be sure to read it carefully to the end.)

Could fish oil raise BG simply because it is a source of calories?

Alison

[k9diabetes]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

Both Atlantic and Discover magazines have published pieces in the past couple of months on how little anyone "knows" about anything in medicine. Poorly designed studies, biased studies, conflicting studies, and the leaning of doctors on the newest treatments, in people, that studies haven't shown to work but were heavily marketed by the manufacturer of the drug or treatment...

After years of touting a particular definition of a healthy diet, they are finding that people who ate the healthy diet don't have any less heart attack or stroke than the ones who didn't.

I always find it interesting that the mechanism of many drugs that definitely do work - such as Imitrex for migraines - is unknown. We know it works but we don't know how. Heck, they don't even really know much about the process of the migraine.

Prozac is another interesting case. I've seen it work personally both in skeptical people and in our dog, nullifying, for me, the influence of the placebo effect. So I personally have my doubts about the recent study that showed it was no more effective than a placebo. Who you study, what you study, how you define success - they all contribute to what the study tells you, if anything. Any success in dogs, especially in extinguishing a specific behavior like tail chasing, would give credence to Prozac having a demonstrable effect, more so than even my perceptions of a reduced level of anxiety since that's not readily measured.

And the placebo effect isn't useless either. I dont give a hoot whether it's the drug or the placebo effect that solves whatever problem I'm trying to fix!

I wind up here: There is very little we (you, me, vets, M.D.s, the researchers) know for certain.

I don't know if that's the good news or the bad news!

Natalie

[Bagel's Mom]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

Very good points!! Reminds me of something I read once,

" What if the Hokey Pokey really WAS what it was all about?"....

Oh well..I just always want to make sure these crazy BG readings aren't from something I DID...

Bagel and the other pups probably get on here every night after we go to bed and have their own secret website..talking about how neurotic their human folks are,
K9Crazyparents.com or something.

We took the longest walk this afternoon and I was thinking I should have brought my phone or some Karo (which I carried forever in the dog buggy) but she did fine. Still her Bgs were 390 when it was dinner time. again, SHE acts fine..I am the frustrated one. dipping to 225 Sat night and then back up. I know the Cushings has a part....but we will touch base with the Vet tomorrow to see what he says about switching DCO and WD? For now she is curled up in her Beagle ball here beside me on the couch and I am thankful...
Sande

[k9diabetes]

Re: Discussion of glucosamine

LOL! I love both the Hokey Pokey line and K9Crazyparents.com!