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  #11  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:04 PM
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Timothy Timothy is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcomes and fast responses here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty View Post
Is there a certain time of the day you usually go?
No, there's not actually, I have always taken him on mountainous hikes where we live (probably around 30 minutes). But since his diagnosis ive only been doing it when I can tell hes feeling good, and not in consecutive days. Theres been days where he would run or trot at a fast pace the whole time having fun, but there's also been days where he would get tired on the way back or else walk really slow.

Im going to keep track of his daily curves throughout the week and when I can get things more consistent I can check his glucose curve on a day when we go on a hike and see how it affects him. That way I can try and find a best time for that.

Other then that his bathroom times and sleep schedules are pretty much consistent he lets me know when he has to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse girl View Post
the dose does need to be reduced or that drop needs to be slowed down by at least half
Does it have to be a decrease in his insulin? or can there be an increase in his food intake?

Last edited by Timothy; 04-10-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2012, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Welcome Timothy and Dutch
I am very new here myself so I'll leave the advice to the pros. But - I will say that you have come to the right place. These folks are knowledgeable and REALLY CARE - Hope you get your boy back on track soon!
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FIGHTING FOR HARLEY...Susan & Harley- Yellow Lab born 2/21/2001 ~ dx 3/27/2012 ~ started with 11 units 2x day now at 21units Humulin N 2x day - weight 100
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  #13  
Old 04-11-2012, 07:45 AM
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jim maceri jim maceri is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

First off welcome timothy and dutch......You've definitely found the right place to help. The folks here are so very knowledgeable and willing to help. I'm no expert, but I think it is important for each of us to share our stories so everyone can learn and as you know each dog being different gives you a wide variety of techniques to manage diabetes.

I too have a giant breed dog. Be aware that curves can and may change. For us it was a bowl style curve for over 2.5 months after DX. Then a mountain. Then a bowl ect........so I always check him 2 hours after his meal and shot because that will tell me what type of curve he has that day. If the number goes up it's a mountain, down and it's a bowl. Yesterday he ran a few higher numbers in the late afternoon which signaled me that a change may be in the works. Sure enough, this morning his fasting # was 171 and 2 hours after meal and shot it was 141. He has been on a mountain for the last 2 weeks and today a bowl.

My guy also gets big drops from walks and exercise so I do a pre-walk and post walk test over several days. I've plotted out a "short" walk (10 min. or so to take care of business) and a long walk of about a mile (20 minutes to really burn some sugar. Drops range from a low of about 30 points to a high of over 100 points. His walks ALWAYS drop his BG. Over 5 months he has never gone up after a walk so that is good to know.

I too keep a log which is extremely helpful in looking for patterns. It has spaces for 6 tests creating a curve. What time he eats, what time the shot is and how much insulin, what time each walk is and how long with an approx. distance. I use walks like many here use a fast acting insulin like "R". I call his walks insulin "W".

Regulation became easier for me (although we're still regulating) once I got a routine down. I measure all his food, give him the same snacks each day, walks at approximately the same time depending on what type of curve he throws me.

Home testing is the key to all of this and it is GREAT that you are doing that. I test spirit on the callus elbow and he doesn't even feel it. Once the beep of the meter goes off he begins to drool because he knows a treat will follow.

Finally, be patient, this is a crazy disease and one or two days of "strange" numbers doesn't really mean a lot unless it becomes a pattern. Watch for low numbers and when you do change a dose, give it at least 3 days but 5 is better to see what the residual effect of the insulin can do. Through my dose changes there are times when the numbers don't seem to move then all of a sudden on the third day I get a nice change in his curve.

We are all here for you and will be following your thread.
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Jim/Marijane & Spirit, Newfoundland, born Dec 22, 2007, 115lbs. DX Oct. 2011, 18.5 units Humulin 2x per day. Hills WD kibble, Hills WD can made into gravy, boiled chicken. Spirit passed on June 9, 2016 and it had nothing to do with diabetes.....farewell my buddy.
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2012, 07:46 AM
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Rubytuesday Rubytuesday is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Hello,
I want to cover some things that you may or may not know as I am very concerned about what you are seeing in your dog. My understanding of diabetes he's evolved so much since Ruby's diagnosis and I have a feeling you may be in the beginning of the learning curve and therefore want to be sure some bases are covered. In the beginning I used to also exercise ruby with no understanding of the crucial interplay between diet/insulin/exercise and how the variable of timing can change it.

So, if I were in your shoes, knowing what I know now I would:

* decrease his insulin to the conservative starting dose of 0.5 units/kg for NPH. A fair number of vets start at 1U/kg and run into problems with that. My dog takes a very small dose and did struggle with being overdosed for a while. You said his test for the insulin dose was tested at the vet's. Do you know if it was a curve that they ran? A curve is a test before food and insulin, called the fasting, and then every 2 hrs. after that until the evening meal. Only this way can you be sure if he isn't dropping too low. Curves preformed at the vet's can be problematic as they are often stressed which tends to raise bgs. Therefore he may have been giving falsely higher numbers than he would run at home without the stress.

* Pick a diabetic friendly diet and not stray from it. Many people weigh the food to ensure the amounts are always the same. Many people have good results with the Wellness Core reduced fat. I recently got the courage to change ruby's food (she has another condition that makes that very tricky) and it made a 200-300 point difference in her food rise...huge! It is possible that the insulin dose was fine before the food change and now is too much.

* Not exercise him until he is stable. When you perform a bg curve one of the key things it reveals is when the dog has his nadir. That is when the insulin is at it's strongest and therefore the bgs are at their lowest. Each dog's nadir will be different and can sometimes change. Knowing when this is likely to happen for your dog is an incredibly useful tool. Exercising him during the nadir, based on the past incidents could be fatal for him. Exercise will often...but not always, drop the bgs. When a dog has a hypoglycemic event the body has sensed that the bg has dropped to low and sends out reserves to try to restore balance. The fact that his system didn't stop there means it was even more of a crisis and the body wasn't able to prevent the scary symptoms that you saw.

Now you might ask if it would be okay to exercise him away from the nadir. I would not recommend it until you had arrived at his ideal dose and then you could monitor him before during and after to see how he reacted to it. Otherwise I think it will cloud the picture and what you need now is clarity.

In my earlier days if someone had told me to reduce when I was seeing high numbers I would have been reluctant, but....I think the highs you are seeing put together with his symptoms are strongly indicating rebound and that is where the highs are coming from. To resolve this you would need to reduce and then give the body time to recover, usually 3-5 days. At that point you could wait 3 days at each dose, curve before increasing to be sure of no lows and then increase by either 1/2U or 1U increases.

All this info is just to be sure you are well informed as you try to figure it all out. It can be very confusing in the beginning, but I think if you were to do the above you would gain a lot of clarity and be able to establish some baselines for your dog to which you could then have a better base to introduce exercise.

I wonder if as someone suggested Rotties as being a bit difficult to stabilize, if they are characteristically sensitive to insulin and often overdosed?? I think I remember the breed also having some other anomaly that makes then a bit more delicate than would otherwise be thought??

I always wanted to have a Rottie, but my husband is an attorney and he is worried we would have problems with our homeowners insurance. We just decided not to take the chance as we could never rehome a dog and then might be forced to lose the insurance.

I wish you the best. It can be a bit overwhelming at first, but once you start testing and get some data under your belt you will come to know your dog well and be able to navigate the intricacies.

Which meter did you get? Some are better then others.

Tara
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:39 AM
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jesse girl jesse girl is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

i do use a snack for jesse at mid morning about 11 am and later at 11 pm something very carby she is a 26 pound beagle so i give her a milkbone and a good squirt of honey on it we use an automatic dog feeder for this

it is something you could try he would probably need quite a bit more than my jesse

what needs to happen is the drop needs to be interrupted or substantially slowed you maybe be able to add more food but we had little success with that so a targeted snack did but all dogs are different

it is very important that this be addressed you are testing that is extremely helpful and it will keep your friend safe

full blown low blood sugar events are rare i believe the body does do a good job protecting itself but you cant depend on that all the time
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2012, 05:26 PM
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Timothy Timothy is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

I tested Dutch's glucose curve today and yesterday.

*NOTE* That there is a gap in his chart for 4/9/2012 between the hours of 10:40 PM - 6:38 AM in which his glucose was not tested. Also Notes refer to what he was doing when test was taken.







Last edited by Timothy; 04-11-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2012, 07:23 PM
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Rubytuesday Rubytuesday is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Hi Timothy,
Good to see all those numbers. He sure is all over the place. I'm not sure I will be of much help here, but I think if you could tell if there was any exercise during those days that might have affected things and also what type of meter you are using. Is it a human meter or an animal validated meter. That info might change how the numbers were interpreted.

I am curious what the vet thought the scary episodes were with him. Did they think hypo or were they thinking something else?

Tara
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  #18  
Old 04-11-2012, 08:01 PM
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Patty Patty is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Hi Timothy,
Your high yesterday morning was likely due to the increased food the night before. I like how stable he was last night though.

I believe you said 2 cups of food is what he typically needs to maintain his weight on this food. I would stick with that (measured carefully) and lower his dose to 29u. If he still produces lows, then drop him back another unit.

The goal is to find a dose where he never goes too low. From that you can see his true curve pattern, without the interference of having to intervene for low blood sugar.

Once you establish a pattern, then tweaking his food can help level out the numbers. Adding a fast acting carb to slow a drop can help some dogs or a well timed snack as Jesse girl posted. But your numbers will help direct your next step.

Patty
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Last edited by Patty; 04-11-2012 at 09:53 PM. Reason: typo
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

I agree that first and foremost that insulin dose needs to be reduced.

Then you can look at the trend on the lower dose of insulin and see whether the diet, etc. needs tweaking.

Natalie
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2012, 06:21 AM
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jim maceri jim maceri is offline
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Default Re: Diabetic Rottweiler/Meter & Curves

Just an FYI....in the beginning, the vet started spirit on 20 units, then sent him home on 15 units 2x per day and we had to drop him back to 11 units where he stayed for almost 3-1/2 months. Just recently, in the last month or so, we worked him back up and he is once again at 15 - 15.25 units.

So, all in all, taking into account his exercise schedule and some similar patterns to what you show below I managed to get the range to within a 100 point travel distance from high to low. I still get some highs and yesterday he dropped to 81 but those are rare and testing at home has really helped.

Don't be afraid to drop back and slowly work back up...I know it may not make much sense but does anything with this disease?
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Jim/Marijane & Spirit, Newfoundland, born Dec 22, 2007, 115lbs. DX Oct. 2011, 18.5 units Humulin 2x per day. Hills WD kibble, Hills WD can made into gravy, boiled chicken. Spirit passed on June 9, 2016 and it had nothing to do with diabetes.....farewell my buddy.
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