Pug-newly diagnosed

[Spearson83]

Our sweet pug, Lucy, was diagnosed with diabetes 2 days ago. Blood work also showed elevated liver enzymes and a liver infection. Before we took her home from the vet, her BSL was 355. The vet instructed us to give 2 units of insulin after she ate that night. The next morning she up to 400. After eating we gave her 2 more units of insulin and two hours later was down to 381. We checked her every 1-1.5 hours for the remainder of the day and her numbers kept going up. At her last check before bed, she was over 500.

My MIL feeds her dogs raw and recommend trying that for her dinner. We fed 1oz ground beef, 1 tsp pumpkin and a couple of green beans. Lucy gobbled it right up which was exciting! We gave her her 2 units of insulin after that meal but her BSL was higher 2 hours later than it was before her meal which was very discouraging. She has always been a fairly slim pug (compared to most others) but now she looks like skin and bones

She is on meds to treat the elevated liver enzymes as well as the infection. Any suggestions on other steps to take?

**Lucy is 10 years old, weighed 17lbs two days ago, has developed significant cataracts (we’re thinking due to the diabetes) and had Parvo as a pup**

[Raysaint]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Assuming you're using NPH insulin, 2 units might be slightly low as a starting dose. 3 - 4 units might be better at first for her weight.
It's natural for bsl to rise after eating and then slowly come down, as insulin strength increases.
Don't expect bsl to become good right away, this takes time and patience. Don't worry about high numbers right now. Keep her on one dose for a week, do a sugar curve to know what the lowest bsl reading is, and when it occurs, then slightly increase insulin as needed, a half unit per week.
The lowest reading (nadir) is what you base an increase on. You don't want nadir to get too low, as that's dangerous (hypoglycemia.)

She'll gain the weight back as her bsl gets regulated.

Be methodical and patient. And don't try to correct high bsl, as that will make it worse. Her body needs to adjust to every new dose for a week. Consistency is key.

Keep her diet low fat if possible, and moderate fiber and carbohydrates.

[CraigM]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Welcome to the forum.

Dogs are started at a STARTING dosage, then usually after about a week the vet / owner will evaluate the blood glucose and make an insulin adjustment. Many think a starting dosage is 0.2 units per pound, so a 17 pounder might start around 3, or 3½, units. Your vet might be a little conservative, but he/she will likely suggest an increased dosage next week. Be warned, this will take some time to get to the proper dosage. Most allow a dosage to settle for a week, evaluate, adjust by a SMALL amount, repeat.

It’s also important to keep other factors stable, like the type and amount of food. Best procedure would select a food / amount and stay with it. During the early weeks, try to avoid treats that would likely increase the blood glucose.

Weight will slowly return once the blood glucose comes under control.

What brand of insulin are you using?

Craig

[jesse girl]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

actually numbers in the 300s is not really that high . its not unusual to see numbers in the 500s and higher and probably the reason you vet started on a lower dose possibly thinking your dog is still producing some of his own insulin

i like a raw diet and Jesse was on a diet of raw grounded beef heart but i determined if it is the majority of the diet it can be difficult to digest all that protein. the way we determined that with jesse was her stools which got a bit mucous filled .

now if you are seeing good stools your dog maybe digesting the food ok . another factor is tummy gurgling if there is allot of it that may point to some upset

a number that is 350 then 400 on a handheld meter is a tiny difference so i would not get to caught up on that . the liver problems and infection can make regulation a bit more difficult until that clears up

its a good sign to see numbers in the 300s for a newly diagnosed diabetic and your pup has a good appetite thats wonderful . dont get caught up with those higher numbers as it takes time for the body to adapt to the new reality of injected insulin

[Spearson83]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

This morning she flat out refused to eat the burger. Is chicken an okay substitute?

[Spearson83]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Welcome to the forum.

Dogs are started at a STARTING dosage, then usually after about a week the vet / owner will evaluate the blood glucose and make an insulin adjustment. Many think a starting dosage is 0.2 units per pound, so a 17 pounder might start around 3, or 3½, units. Your vet might be a little conservative, but he/she will likely suggest an increased dosage next week. Be warned, this will take some time to get to the proper dosage. Most allow a dosage to settle for a week, evaluate, adjust by a SMALL amount, repeat.

It’s also important to keep other factors stable, like the type and amount of food. Best procedure would select a food / amount and stay with it. During the early weeks, try to avoid treats that would likely increase the blood glucose.

Weight will slowly return once the blood glucose comes under control.

What brand of insulin are you using?

Craig

The vet gave us Vetsulin to use.

[jesse girl]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

This morning she flat out refused to eat the burger. Is chicken an okay substitute?

chicken is ok but usually there is a reason why a dog doesnt want to eat . you may have to reduce the amount of food you feed for now and take things slow .

[Scooterspal]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

...She is on meds to treat the elevated liver enzymes as well as the infection. Any suggestions on other steps to take?

A couple of things...

First, the medication is likely affecting her BC levels. Do a Google search to see if this is noted in the literature. You may need to get past that in order to have better control.

Second, I agree that she is also likely not getting enough insulin as yet. My dog weighs 17 lbs and started off at 4 units of NPH N twice a day. He is now getting a bit more. It changes over time. You are using Vetsulin which is a "combo" insulin. Many here use NPH in both the N, intermediate acting version and the R, short acting version. It gives us better control but is tricky to administer. For now, stay with what you have. You can switch when closer to regulation.

Finally, feeding should be as consistent as possible. Maybe consider finding a commercial dog food Lucy will eat with out fussing and stick with it. Same amount at each feeding.

[Spearson83]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

What I’ve noticed over the last couple of days is that Lucy doesn’t want to eat when it’s time (before getting the insulin). I’ve been trying to get her to eat as much as I can prior to her dose (vet upped it to 3 units in the morning and again in the evening), but it seems like she is interested a couple hours AFTER her dose. Has anyone else experienced this with their dog? The vet did say that our insulin (Vetsulin) is at it's “peak” 4-6 hours after it's given.

She was never the typical fat pug and with how little she is eating, she has gotten so skinny. When might we actually see her start to put on a little weight? I worry about her getting so skinny

[Scooterspal]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Giving a full dose of insulin without food can cause low BC to occur. This is very dangerous. The worst of all possibilities. Worse than high BC. Diabetes generally makes a dog more hungry, not less. The other issues like the infection may be having a negative affect on her diet.

If your dog will not eat you need to fix that, first. She may not like her current food. Dogs can get tired of the "same old thing" day after day. The small food packets I give Scooter come in so many different varieties he can never get bored. Every meal smells and tastes different, but the base ingredients and nutrients remain nearly the same. Perhaps give that product a try.

Excersize makes a dog hungry. Perhaps your dog wants to pee or mess first, then eat. Try changing her daily routine a bit and see if that gets her to eat.

[Raysaint]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Always match the insulin dose to the food. If food intake goes up or down, insulin usually does too. It's best if you can get her to eat in the morning so that you can give consistent doses.

Take her total food intake of the day and split it into morning and evening, with consistent doses. Maybe a little less supper might make her hungry in the morning.
If she flat out won't eat breakfast, then you have to get creative. Sometimes they go thru a little period of not wanting breakfast, but it can pass.

[bichons9]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

Prior to changing foods a few times, in August, Frank and I went to extremes by hand feeding-not too interested, placing food right on floor-not too successful, placing food near or in frank's mouth (not mine)-somewhat successful, offering by hand 1 tiny particle at a time- best but not great. Finally, after decreasing the overall amt of food by 3 food changes and calculations, Suzie eats it up in no time..I do hope that she is not starving, though prior to her D.M. she ate freely so I wonder if eating full meals at one time were not to her liking. However, we did not have to deal with unwanted weight loss. Suzie (chihuahua) has gone from 12-5 to 11-14 and 2 of other (larger) dogs have lost 9 lbs each. I did worry that something was wrong at first but never concluded such..Suzie eats well..(maybe too well) but we are still trying to figure foods and calculating amounts...and how to choose vitamin?mineral supplements. The experienced members will help your baby through this and really care. They are helping Suzie ..Good Luck

[Spearson83]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

If your dog will not eat you need to fix that, first. She may not like her current food. Dogs can get tired of the "same old thing" day after day. The small food packets I give Scooter come in so many different varieties he can never get bored. Every meal smells and tastes different, but the base ingredients and nutrients remain nearly the same. Perhaps give that product a try

.

My husband is going to pick up a couple tonight for her to try.

When it’s time for her to eat, her BSL is around 320. If it’s that high, could that be the reason she is not interested in eating?

[Raysaint]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

320 isn't extremely high. I don't think that's the reason, but who knows. If only they could talk.

[Scooterspal]

Re: Pug-newly diagnosed

When it’s time for her to eat, her BSL is around 320. If it’s that high, could that be the reason she is not interested in eating?

I'm not sure dogs have any sense of their levels being "high". In Scooters case he acts exactly the same at any level. He just drinks and pees more the higher he goes.

The mantra on this forum is "all dogs are different" so some may feel it... sense something is not right.

BTW: you need to mix the Cesar very well as the nutrients are in the gelatin. I use a small metal spatula and keep mixing until a smooth consistency.