Sammy's Story

[Bevm]

'best dog food for dogs with diabetes' - where do I find this?

Hi I have found this website whilst looking for help with managing diabetes for my 10 year old little boy Sammy who is a Miniature Schnauzer he was diagnoses 3 months ago and is still not balanced. His weight has gone down from 8 kilos to 5:70 he has always been slim but you can now see every bone and put your fingers under his ribs, awful.

Sammy is allergic to the dried diabetic food so I have been cooking fresh chicken, fish, liver and brown rice with barley, root veg and greens for him supplementing it with raw organic egg , cottage cheese and brewers yeast plus fish oil weighing it and giving him the same amounts each day at 12 hour intervals with his insulin 5.5 ml. He still keeps spiking and over the last two days as gone from too low to get a reading and then too high to get one I am really concerned , I called the Vet each time and they advised me on the insulin to give him but we do not know why it is happening. Am I doing something wrong with his food? Any advice appreciated Bev

[amydunn19]

Re: Sammy's Story

I started this thread for Sammy. I will try to copy some of Sammy's numbers from a message I received so others can help Bev out:

I have curves prepared by the Vet plus ones I have taken details below any help would be appreciated
Bev

Sunday14th August [/B]the curve started at 23.1 at 10am, 14.00 at 11 am, 13.1at 12 am, 9.6 at 13;00, 9.2 at 14:00, 9.6 at 15:00, 8:00 at 16:00 we had just been for a walk in the woods for a hour, it then shot up to 15.3 at 18:, 6.1 at 19:00, 6ml insulin at 20:00 no blood taken, 15.00 at 21:00 and 9.5 at 23:00.
15th August 8:30 am 31.5, 10 am 27.3, 16:00hrs 12.3
16th August 8:30 reduced insulin to 5.5 ml night and morning throughout week before 10.7 at 8:30 am
17th August 28.6 at 8:30am, 9.2 at 14:00 hrs, 24.4 at 20:00 hrs
18th 22.1 at 8:30 am
21 August 4am 33., 27:3 at 8:30 am 5.5 ml insulin, 16.6 at 11 am, 8:00 at 12:00, 5:30 at 13hrs, 1.2 16:00hrs, waited 10 mins took blood again LOW off the scale phoned Vet advised I gave him 4mi insulin and fed him at 19:00 usually fed 8:30 and 20:30, , 22.3 20:00hrs, 24.3 22:00, 27.3 23:00, 32.1 24:00, too high to get a reading, 32.1 at 4am, 27.3 at 6am, 5:00 at 14o hrs, 20.3 at 18:00hrs - run out of testing strips

[jesse girl]

Re: Sammy's Story

what i believe is if a dog is receiving a dose that's to much its really hard to determine what that lower dose would be

basically when you reach that point the body was able to keep up with the strength of injected insulin even if it was to much but once you go over that point that's where the body cant keep up with it .

now reducing the dose by a tiny amount may give the body a chance to catch up and you may see higher numbers and maybe substantially higher once again giving the impression that the dog is not getting enough insulin

it takes the body a week to 2 weeks to settle on a dose . thats why its a very slow process if passing the dose that is needed it can be really difficult to find your way back to the correct dose the body maybe already confused by the strength of injected insulin trying to correct it with stored supplies from the body


in the end if numbers are going lower that what is considered safe for your pup you have little choice but to reduce the dose . maybe you can prop sugar up with extra food and snacks but if that is not part of an overall stable routine then you may return to that lower level

this is just my theory and what i have seen with my jesse

[amydunn19]

Re: Sammy's Story

The normal starting dose for a 12 lb is 2.4 units (sorry I have to convert to pounds to keep it straight). Most schnauzers need a higher than average dose and can be difficult to regulate. What dose was he started at? It sounds like 5.5 may be too high for his food.

Also, what proportion of the protein and carb are you giving? Are you weighing his food? What is he getting calorie wise?

[Bevm]

Re: Sammy's Story

Thank you Amy and Jessie

Sammy was a very well lively little slim dog until his adopted mother Susie died and within two weeks of losing our wonderful loving little fur daughter and Sammy's constant companion, they were always together and at night plus during the day always curled up and slept together. Susie went blind and Sammy was her guide plus cleaned and tended to her like she had always looked after him They were very close and at first I thought it was the grief that was making him ill, I still think its been a major factor. Sammy was with me when Susie died after a stroke. He still greets every little dog by peering into their face and giving them a lick before turning away, it's like he is looking for her. Sammy had a health check two weeks before Susie died and he was given good report plus his weight was stable. I think it is the shock that has started all this.

I am in the UK so the measurements appear different from your curves. On my monitor I am unable to get a reading if very under 1 and too high for a reading is over 35.

Sammy was 29.7 this morning when he woke me at 5:30 to go for a wee
next measurement was 27.5 when I gave him 5.5 insulin - it is often high first thing in the morning in the 30's and drops into the 20's on it's own by 8:30 -9 when I feed him and give Sammy his 12 hour insulin.

I feed on the basis of 30% protein from meat, fish, liver, in addition I either add an organic small egg from our bantams every other day or some cottage cheese plus 30% brown rice,plus barley or buckwheat and 30% fresh blanched veg, carrots, kale, sweet potato, broccoli, cauliflower, beetroot. I cook a whole chicken once a week and liver etc so weigh all the food and make up batches of meals for him so he gets the same amounts morning and night. The food was passing through him undigested so I give him half with his full insulin and then wait half an hour before giving Sammy the remainder of his meal , it works and now he produces normal well digested faeces, plus is not so hungry.

Sammy's first Vet's blood test two weeks after Susie died showed glucose level at 33 so he was started on 7mls of insulin every 12 hours, I queried this since it was a lot higher dose than the manufacture information slip was saying. Gradually I have reduced it with the Vet's agreement to 5.5 and will slowly try reducing it to 5 and see if that helps thank you for your advice.
Good wishes to you all and your fur children Bev

[amydunn19]

Re: Sammy's Story

His diet might be too inconsistent day to day than is desired. The meals should be as close to the same every day. Some things cause their sugar to spike - like liver is almost always problematic. It is a fatty organ so it is a higher calorie fattier component. The fact he gets rice one day with barley and another day with buckwheat might cause different results. It is best to have the same meal in the same quantity day after day, then you can start to see more consistent results day to day and try to figure out the next step to balancing the food with the insulin. Even if calories are close, the different components of the meals cause the sugar to vary daily. That would be my suggestion.

[Bevm]

Re: Sammy's Story

Thank you Amy I did not realise that liver could cause problems are there any other meat that cause problems like that? What diet homemade do you use or suggest?
Good news is that Sammy has put some weigh on for the first time this week, he went from 5.70 kilos to 5.95 on Thursday and 6.10 yesterday at the Vet's which is the highest he has been since this all started which equals about 10 ounces increase, which is great now to hope he will keep increasing.

Good Wishes to you all Bev x Sammy x

[Eddie]

Re: Sammy's Story

Hello and welcome from another UK member

I don't know if you are prepared or able to try Sammy on dried dog food as that easily provides the consistency you need. If you are happy to try it, you might try something like Canagan which has quite limited ingredients. (We use it for our dog who got very itchy with most other dry dog food).

Do you know what ingredient in the diabetic food it was that didn't agree with him?

What did you feed him before he was diagnosed?

Good news that he is putting on a little weight - it's very worrying when they get so skinny!

Antonia

[Bevm]

Re: Sammy's Story

Hi Eddie

Thank you for your reply I will look into the food you recommend, it would be useful to have an emergency standby if I can not cook Sammy's food. Lilly's food have also been recommended and sound to be a healthy alternative

The reason why I changed to all homemade food was because my other little dog was having eye problems due to renal failure - I read a book by a Vet who was also using alternative methods and she advised coming off dried food and keeping to a homemade diet she supplied. We were delighted after a few short weeks when Susie regained her sight in one eye - it made a huge difference to her last few months. Sammy has also got the bluey tinge to his eyes though he can see well, hence trying to keep off the dried food to protect his eye sight.

I live in Wales where are you in the UK?
Good wishes Bev x Sammy

[jesse girl]

Re: Sammy's Story

that is a unique perspective . my jesse has been on a partially raw homemade diet and has kept her sight for over 6 years she has been diabetic . I definitely cant say its the food but that thought did enter my mind .

[tonyr]

Re: Sammy's Story

Hi Bev,
As you have probably realised by now there is no " best dog food for dog with diabetes", it is more about what your dog will eat willingly once you have drawn up a short list of suitable foods.

To help you draw up a short list you should visit this site :-
http://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory.
Here you can see a breakdown of all foods :- wet ,dry, raw, complimentary with analysis on ingredients that are questionable, there is advice, a forum, in fact tons of information.

If you want to feed raw, wet or frozen its all there from names you will never had heard of with a full breakdown of ingredients and analysis.

From a short look at Lily's foods they are good quality but they seem somewhat overpriced to similar if not better foods.
My recommendation to you would be the Forthglade range of wet foods, its the one I use personally mixed with a dry food to give the extra carbs and fibre.
I can see you take his food seriously and this site would have lots of info you would like to know.

[Eddie]

Re: Sammy's Story

I agree with with Tony about there not being any single food that is good for diabetes. The dogs on this forum eat a wide range of food and the most important thing is that they eat it willingly every meal time.

The Canagan that we give Eddie is probably not a particularly "diabetic" food (so to that extent it is not exactly a recommendation!) but it is quite good quality and it just happened to suit his other digestive and allergy problems. it was what he ate before he got diabetes and we just carried on feeding it.

We're in sunny Herefordshire so maybe not too far from you in Wales.

Antonia

[Bevm]

Re: Sammy's Story

Thank you all so much it is great to get some support, and speak to other dog owners who have gone through this or going through it. I have been trying to make sense of it all on my own, especially whilst grieving for Susie and scared I was going to loose Sammy too. I really appreciate your response

I will definitely look into the 'www all about dog food.co.uk thank you so much .

I have just cooked a batch of eight days meals with chicken mixed veg I included some from the Canagan range too and brown rice. Sammy has got a good appetite and will eat any home cooked meals , though at the moment I think he will eat anything including the hen's corn!! I have now closed the bottom on the barn door so he cannot get in.

Hereford Antonia, you are not far from me I live in mid Wales

[Bevm]

Re: Sammy's Story

Is it normal for a dog's glucose level to increase after walking? Sammy was 24.5 and then we went for a walk and when we got home his level had shot up to 30.7 but a hour later when his insulin was due with his meal I tested before feeding him and it had dropped to 20.6. I had not given him any food or insulin in between.

Last night after Sammy had been fed and received his insulin, he was still demanding more food - he kept running to his bowl and running to me wanting more. . Do I have to keep the amount the same ? - when I cook his meals I weigh everything and make sure they are equal. Could I have given him more?- he is very underweight.

I felt so mean not feeding him until he wants to stop. Sammy b d - before diabetes - would eat what he wanted and leave the rest.

[amydunn19]

You could feed him constantly but until his blood sugar is consistently in a lower range, he will not gain weight and he will continue to be hungry. When blood sugar is high, the food they eat is not used - it just passes through and doesn't do any good.

Have you thought about possibly the ratio of carbs to meat might need to be lower? I don't know how much of the meal is carbs and how much is protein but that could be an issue. You can always play around with giving less carbs and more meat but keep i mind the carbs are necessary - your ratio just may need adjusting.