how do i know its too much insulin?

[momofdecker]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

What is his weight? 8u twice daily might not be a lot for his weight. My guy was on 10u twice daily.

[farrwf]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

How much does Brock weigh?

[crysblaz]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

when we first found out that he was diabetic (about 5 months ago) he weighed about 58 pounds give or take. I weighed him today and he is now 51.5 pounds.

[jesse girl]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

my calculations were off a bit . with levemir being 4 times as potent as nph and vetsulin the amount you would see as a dose compared to levemir would be 64 units more in units than the weight of your pup

its very possible you may have passed the dose that was needed . if you are not home testing blood sugar and periodically going to the vet for a sugar test and if it was only a single test you could have easily missed a lower trend and based the next dose adjustment off a period of higher numbers possibly caused by the lower trend

the body can use stored sugar from the body to preserve life which can cause what may look like resistance to insulin but in reality its not

this is where it becomes very difficult to find your way back to a dose that maybe appropriate . the only clue to this as a possibility is that lower trend at a much lower dose at an earlier time in the regulation process

as hollie suggested certain things can cause resistance to insulin like thyroid problems , high cholesterol and triglycerides. high cortisol levels as you would see in cushings .

i would think testing for any medical issues to cause insulin resistance would be prudent . reducing the dose dramatically maybe by half or more maybe helpful. if you are not home testing you should. you maybe able to get some information from physical symptom's like feeling better after a reduction but you need to know whats really going on with blood sugar throughout the day and testing blood sugar at home is the only way to do that

[amydunn19]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

What area of the country do you live in? Are there any vet schools nearby? He really needs to get to a vet who will consider why he is requiring so much insulin. I would want a thyroid panel done just to rule it out.

I am concerned about the dose of levemir and how they decided to raise him. Did he stay with them all day or did they do a single test? Do you have any records of readings?

I would encourage you to start home testing. You can get a human meter like the One Touch Ultra or order an animal meter like the Alphatrack to test him. I have used the One Touch and it is pretty accurate in the lower ranges and might be a bit off in the upper ranges but will be close enough for this purpose.

[crysblaz]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

we live about an hour east of Amarillo, Texas. There might be one in Amarillo but I'm not sure.

When the vet raised the levels, it was just a single blood test done about 8 hours after his morning insulin/food. We originally had problems with leaving him at the vet for the glucose curve, cause the turd wouldn't eat for the vets. So I would feed him, and drop him off in the morning, they would do the curve and then I would pick him up in the evening. We did this everyday for about a week and when they finally found a insulin that make a dent in the glucose level, they stuck with that one and just "adjusted" (increased).

I just got a glucose meter and am going to do my own glucose curve, but will have to do it on Thursday so I can test all day.

[amydunn19]

Re: Do any of these supplements work?

That is why home testing is good. The anxiety of being at the vet's office can cause the results to be off, too. My dog could never complete a curve at the vet's office because she would paw at the cage until she hurts herself or they let her out. Then, she would wreak havoc around any area of the back if they let her loose.

At least they did curves so that is a good sign but they really need to do a curve or partial curve before any adjustment.

Have they ever mentioned thyroid testing? It would need to be a complete thyroid panel to get a true result.

[crysblaz]

how do i know its too much insulin?

Our 16 yr old dog, Brock has been diagnosed as diabetic for almost a year now. He was overweight to start with, at about 60 lbs (he's a pit bull, it wasn't too bad- maybe 5ish above what he should be). We have only 1 vet nearby that is comfortable treating him. We started with 8 units a day of Levemir, and they have raised his insulin every few months because his glucose level never seems to regulate. He will be ok on the new dose and then, with nothing changing, start spiking again and we are then back at the constant drinking and urination, etc. At 1st the vet was sure it was the homemade diet, so we switched to TOTW thinking that a grain free- high protein would be best, and there was no change, so they finally convinced me to try Hill's W/d.

My poor dog dropped about 10 lbs, and looks like he is malnourished (the vet said he was at a healthy weight now, but i dont agree). His back bone and ribs are poking out and he goes after a kernel of food like its the only thing he's eaten in days and once again back at the water bowl and peeing nonstop! I've checked his glucose several times a day and it will start about 500ish and drop down to about 200-300 range and then go back up.

I don't like that the W/d is 50% carbs (doesn't make sense that that is good for a diabetic dog) and mostly corn. So a few days ago i started mixing the food, 1/2 w/d and 1/2 TOTW. I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but almost immediately he sees to be better, he's still drinking excessively but not as much, and he seems to just LOOK and feel better!I wanted to give it a couple more days to adjust before I check his glucose levels.

Right now we are at 18 units per day of Levemir, which I know is extremely potent for dogs.

I've been reading on the forum that OVERdosing a dog with insulin can make the glucose reading higher and mimic the signs of a lack of insulin. My question is this: How do I figure out if the vet has been prescribing too much insulin as opposed to what he needs? I know when I take Brock back to the vet for his normal checkup, she is going to say that its high and lets up the insulin and go back to 100% prescription food (odd how the one they recommend is the one they sell).

[jesse girl]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

hi and welcome

a general consensus on levemir its four times more potent than nph (which many of us use ) insulin

now a starting dose would be around 12 units twice a day for a dog your size on nph now that would be about 3 units for levemir

dont know how much your giving now but its possible with the 8 unit starting dose you maybe have started with to much insulin and thats what you are seeing with each time raising the dose a bit of positive results but once the body figures its to much then wright back up

now if that has occurred it maybe difficult finding your way back and you may have to start all over with a much lower dose with no guarantees its the wright direction

is there a reason they started out with levemir not a choice insulin to start with . it has worked well as an alternative for some to other insulin's

its funny the prescriptions food dont read that well but work pretty good with insulin for many but you do need allot of food to get enough nourishment and if a dog is running high all the time that nourishment cant be processed very well so its not unusual for a diabetic dog to loose weight even being over fed

many do add something a bit more substantial to the prescription food and do well usually something homemade

well its been a year you may have to start over . i understand you have allot invested in terms of time but your not completely starting over if you go back to a much lower dose to start and if the numbers are high after giving it at least a week to settle you maybe be able to move up with a larger dose increase depending where the numbers are

you may want to change insulin just for maybe reset purposes relion n insulin at walmart is about $ 25 syringes are discounted there also

you can manage this at home if you want . your testing blood sugar no reason to take the pup to the vet for that . you can experiment with what works and doesnt . i am not saying the vet is not capable but they just dont see the dog enough to really manage them where a care taker at home does if they want to put the time into it

most dogs even ones with not so good regulation once the care taker takes control they see better regulation down the road it took about a year for my jesse . i did take control after a couple weeks after diagnosis

[farrwf]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

That sure looks like a lot of insulin for a 50 pound dog.

Diabetes Mellitus in dogs and cats in 2012: What’s new? What’s the same?

ISVMA: Illinois State Veterinary Medical Association
Linda E. Luther, DVM, DACVIM (SAIM)
Small Animal Track
2012 ISVMA Annual Conference Proceedings


Canine insulin options: 2012

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...90491159,d.eXY

o NPH (Humulin® N, Relion® N). Often short duration. Starting dose 0.25-0.5 units/kg.

o rhPZI (ProZinc™). Longer duration, but might result in Somogyi overswing if it lasts > 12 hours, so some dogs might need once daily administration (but start w/BID). Starting dose 0.5 units/kg.

o 70% NPH/30% Regular (Humulin® 70/30). Starting dose 0.25-0.5 units/kg.

o Insulin detemir (Levemir®): Starting dose 0.1-0.2 units/kg.

[crysblaz]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

Thanks for the links! And the information! We had issues with Brock not wanting to eat for the vet, so i would feed him, drop him off at the vet and then pick up up at night. The vet tried 2 other types of insulin, but that was only 1 day each, and when it didn't even drop BG more than 100, he tried a different insulin the next day....which now we know isn't how it should have been done. I want to wait a few days for his change in food to finish settling before i do anything with his insulin..But im seriously thinking about trying to lower his insulin dosage myself.

How should i do this? Just take his weight and calculate the starting dose and give that for 7 days (should be about 2 1/2 units is that total or each 12 hour dose)? Do a curve and see where we are at. And then slowly increase it from there 1/2 to 1 unit per week until we are where we need to be? Are there any health risks in doing this? I don't want to hurt or make him uncomfortable, but if it will save him suffering down the road I'm willing to try.

[jesse girl]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

yes it sounds about right if you want to stick with levemir

its really not that complicated sounds like the vet has little experience with diabetes which is not that unusual the ones truly with experience are the individual caretakers that have traveled that road with there pups

[amydunn19]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

Your vet scares me a little - you have to have patience with this disease and giving insulin one day to make a difference screams inexperience. Glad you are here.

[k9diabetes]

Re: how do i know its too much insulin?

Could you post exactly what he's on now? - how many units of what insulin and how many injections per day plus any blood sugar readings you have taken.

Have you started doing blood sugar testing at home?

You noted Levemir 18 units per day - is that two 9-unit injections?

That would still be high but nearly as bad as 18 units all at once.

The way you described your dog originally doing well on a dose and then again spiking up is what one sees in dogs with Cushing's disease. And a need for a large amount of insulin also can be a sign of Cushing's.

I'd like to see more detail before suggesting how to go about a reduction or how much /whether to reduce the insulin. A lot would depend on whether it was 9 units per injection or 18.

Are you planning to stay with Levemir?

Natalie