Just don't get it

[cotrone2005]

Hi. UPDATE

Lily (our love)
Bichon Frise
11 years - 11 lbs
Diagnosed Dec 15
3.5 Units Novolin N 2x a day
Diabetes
Probable Cushing
Thyroid
Small Mass in Liver
Hills W/D dry and 1/2 can of same 2x daily. Snacks of green beans/carrots/hand full of dry Hills pretty much when she starts whining, around 4pm. Also ground turkey home made meatballs. She is always hungry.

We are scheduled for our 2nd Curve test Friday. Prior curve test had to be stopped due to sugar too high. We also had to be rescheduled due to pancreatitis attacks, keytoasodosis and UTI.

She has been in a Vet Hospital and/or visits so much lately we are on information overload. Due to all the emergency complications we feel so uninformed about the root of problem - which is trying to regulate insulin 1st priority. So overwhelmed because we are dealing with our regular Vet and a Vet Hospital. Who have a tad bit different thoughts on diabetes.

Our concerns are: Lily whines with hunger ALOT. She has lost so much weight. Will regulation help decrease her appetite and increase her weight? What glucose numbers would be optimal? We have NO IDEA at all about blood prick numbers and our Vets want to complete the 2nd Curve before we get into numbers. We have ordered the AlphaTrak 2.

THANK YOU FROM OUR FAMILY.

[AugtheDog]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

Hi!! Welcome! We are in the same boat as you right now. Our 11lb chihuahua was diagnosed Nov 28th. Also thinking possible cushings. We have yet to have him tested for the cushings as we are still trying to regulate his glucose. As of yesterday we switched him to Hills w/d wet and increased his dose to 6 units twice daily. Our vet encouraged us to feed him four small meals a day. I also read on Vetsulins website about 4 meals- so we will see if that makes a difference. So we prob won't be needing to give a snack. We use the alphatrak to monitor at home and do all our own curves and spot checking. Definitely helps to not have to take him in for that- he would be too stressed. So that's great you will start home monitoring. I have found that everyone on this website has more experience with the diet changes and advice than a Vet. But everyone has to modify it for their dog so take others opinions into consideration as you do your own trial and error. We are just as in love with our Auggie as it seems you are with lily. We want to give him the best possible chance at this. Hopefully we can share and follow each other with these possible cushings diagnosis.

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

Hi and welcome to the forum to you and Lily(our dog is also a Lily)!

If you haven't already done so, take a look at Natalie's write up on managing your dogs diabetes at...

http://www.k9diabetes.com/

I still go back and reference this from time to time.

In the beginning it all seems overwhelming, but getting Lily's diabetes under control can definitely be done

[wild lady wolf]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

Hi there!

I wonder if Lily is whining for something other than hunger? My baby loves food too but I have to ignore him when it is not the scheduled time to feed him. He gets 2 regular meals every 12 hours and a light snack at "lunch."

The routine takes time to get used to for everyone, but practice is going to make it easier as time goes by. Exercise and lots of attention help too.

Lean turkey should be fine, but not daily, I know Mr Shadow gets bored easily w/same food, so I alternate w/d canned and dry dog food.

Relax, it will be okay.

[Judi]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

Hi: My Jenny had both. The hunger from the cushings is so sad to see.

I'm not as technically knowledgeable as a lot of the folks around here but we muddled through with both diseases for 3 1/2 years so I chime in when I see someone in the same boat. It is soooo overwhelming.

Even though the cushings tests are horribly expensive and not always conclusive for a dog who has a stressed out system from everything else going on, our dog did not really respond to insulin at all till we started the cushings meds.

The cushings test that our vet used the ACTH, is the one that measures cortisol levels, they shoot some gel in the dog, and after a couple of hours measure the cortisol levels again.

The problem is that if a dog's system is stressed from uncontrolled diabetes, pancreatitis, etc., their cortisol level can be increased due to that and it may not be cushings.

My Jenny was textbook cushings. She had the hunger, the crappy skin/hair, we were up to 7 units of insulin twice a day for an 8 pound dog with very little effect on her blood sugar, and even though she'd lost weight she still had a pot belly.

My long winded point is, that after we started the cushings meds and monitoring, the insulin needs went down. The first time she didn't scarf all her food down instantly I knew she was gonna be ok.

So, I say treat the cushings now if the specialist will go along with it.

It is important to monitor at home because approx. 1 month into the cushings meds the insulin needs will decrease and you can have some scary low blood sugar events. I didn't test at home for a long time until Jenny's blood sugar was 40 one morning. ugh

Also, with the treats, Jenny's eye doctor was adamant: no treats for regulation. She would take patients home for 2 weeks and get them regulated because she is hard core and won't give treats lol. I always gave small treats. I built it into Jenny's schedule. But the extra meatballs you are doing could really be messing with the blood sugar.

It's hard when they have that cushings hunger

Sorry I don't have more advice. Jenny was diagnosed with diabetes in January, cushings on July 4th, and I remember that fall being relieved that she was her rowdy, perky bossy little self again. So hang in there.

Judi

[amydunn19]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

The insatiable hunger can be due to cushings or uncontrolled diabetes, and keep in mind if you feed too many snacks, then getting to regulation is that much harder. When sugar is high, the body doesn't use the food properly and it kind of passes through without doing any good - so they get skinnier and feel hungrier all the time.

It sounds like Lily has many conditions going on - is she taking thyroid meds? Has she had cushings tests? Many vets bring up cushings when they don't have an answer on where to go next. Do you have any blood sugar numbers from her hospital stays? Has her insulin been increased at all? I do find it odd to be diagnosed at 6 weeks and still be on the starting dose? Even with pancreatitis, an increase would be warranted if the numbers were really high.

High numbers can cause the issues she is having - especially UTI's.

In the beginning, it is tough because there is so much info. I would start testing her blood sugar immediately. In my opinion, even with pancreatitis attacks, the dosage could have probably been increased and some blood sugar tests could have been done. You don't need permission to start testing from the vet - it will help you to feel more confident and have information vital to managing diabetes as the primary caregiver. Some vets aren't in favor of home testing. I did not give my vet a choice - I told him it was a deal breaker. He made me promise I would not increase or change things without consulting him. This began a great partnership that lasted for over 8 years of Maggie's care. You guys can totally do this.

[cotrone2005]

Overwhelmed with Food Choices

Our Bichon is newly diagnosed and I am trying to research food. Lily is still not regulated. Currently she is on W/D but after reading a bunch I want to change. We are so overwhelmed.

PLEASE let me know what kind of food you feed and why.

Will changing food cause change in insulin? I understand that I need to test Lily, but, would like input from other fur baby Mommies & Daddies.

[amydunn19]

Re: Overwhelmed with Food Choices

Regulation takes time - months even. If I recall, you guys haven't had a curve or any increases in insulin yet. I would start testing immediately. Food and insulin have to balance and no adjustments have been made yet.

You want to go very low fat because if I recall correctly, you also have pancreatitis to deal with. The last food combo I used with Maggie was Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Duck and Legume dry and Weruva canned Paw Lickin Chicken. These were the lowest fat commercial dry/wet I could find. The canned version of the Natural Balance limited ingredient has higher fat than you want. When examining canned food, make sure you don't use the fat %, you have to take the moisture out so most canned food is significantly higher than what the can says.

There are many options to pick from.

[cotrone2005]

Re: Overwhelmed with Food Choices

Hi there. Lily had a Curve test Fri and she was so high they stopped test. We have increased insulin and have another Curve this a Friday. And you are right about the pancreatitis!!��

I do not understand what you mean by take moisture out. Is this good or bad for diabetes? How do I know this? Thank you so much for answering me

[cotrone2005]

Re: Help Plz. New Diagnosis

Hi there Augthedog.
Thank you for replying. I wonder if different insulins can tolerate more meals? I would love to be able to feed Lily 4 small meals. I def will ask vet Friday when I see her.
We too, are on W/D, but I am concerned with the corn ingredients. I have this on my "ask Vet list". I am researching new foods
Where are you pricking Aggie for blood?
Please keep me up to date on Auggie's progress

[amydunn19]

Re: Overwhelmed with Food Choices

When you look to compare wet foods, you see total protein, total fat, fiber and moisture all expressed as a percentage. When you look at canned food, the moisture is usually at least 80% so the number for total fat on the label is not correct.

You use dry matter analysis to find the true fat % - take the moisture number from the label and subtract it from 100(as in 100 %) then take the reported amount of fat and divide it by the dry mattter figure you just figured.

The label for the Weruva Paw Licking Chicken I mentioned looks like this:
Crude Protein 10%, Crude Fat 1.4%, Crude Fiber .5% , Total Moisture 85%. Looks like it only has 1.4 % fat but when you take the moisture into account it actually is figured like this: 100 - 85 = 15. Then take 1.4 divided by 15 = .093333 or 9.3 % fat. Which is still very low fat but the label makes you think you are feeding 1%. This really matters when you look at a food like Wellness Core Weight Management - total fat on the label is 3.5% and the moisture is 78% 100 -78 = 22; 3.5 divided by 22 = .159 or 16 % fat. Technically, that is too high on fat for pancreatitis.

You also should look at the dry foods too - generally they have around 10% moisture so you can use the same formula to figure fat. It doesn't change the fat content much but it often is higher in fat than the label says. If a dry food has 10% moisture and the fat is listed at 10% then the actual fat is 11.1 % - not a huge difference but with pancreatitis, it could be important.

I mention this as you are looking at foods - when you compare labels, many employees at pet stores don't know or understand dry matter analysis. It will help you weed out the foods that are too high fat for pancreatitis. The biggest difference is wet and raw. Keep your calculator out and you can determine what the numbers really say.

[Lauren]

Re: Overwhelmed with Food Choices

Just wanted to add that we did pancreatitis with a nondiabetic dog and a great food we used was Honest Kitchen Zeal. Pricey but healthy.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Overwhelmed with Food Choices

You can see some of the foods fed to our diabetic dogs over the years here:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240

I've seen diabetic dogs do well on basically every diet out there. The one thing I've seen somewhat consistently is that very high protein diets (all or mostly all meat) often do not match the profile of the insulin absorption and thus have required people who wanted to feed them to supplement the diet with vegetables or carbohydrates to give some sugar to the insulin early on while the protein is still being digested.

Dogs absorb insulin - generally anyway - faster than people do. So we use one medium insulin like Vetsulin or NPH to cover both basic blood sugar and sugar from meals while Type 1 diabetic people usually need a fast acting insulin to cover meals.

In some dogs, the insulin is process so quickly that they need something digested quickly to go with it, sometimes even totally carby stuff a human diabetic would never eat - bread, crackers!

So what proportions of protein and carbs will work well for your dog depends on how Lily processes her insulin injections.

Our diabetic dog ate it all while diabetic. Started with WD, moved to premium canned foods with grains, eventually mixed that premium canned food with an equal amount of lowfat cottage cheese, which worked well to deliver a slower supply of blood sugar than canned food alone.

Natalie

[cotrone2005]

Just don't get it

Hi. Lily is our 9.75lb Bichon. Diagnosed Dec 23.

We are still trying to regulate.

Curve using Alpha Trak 2 completed 10 days ago and glucose was in 400's. Increased Novolin to 7 units from 6.5 - 2X day.

Today began Curve. 4 hours in, her glucose is 619. I repeated test, same result. I cannot figure this out. It seems way too high. Am I going crazy?

She does have UTI due to glucose over flowing into urine, and is on Clavomax (6 days) which should not interfere with glucose.

She also has Cushings and spot in her liver. We have yet to address because we need to regulate her.

We are stumped and frustrated. Our Vet is not in today!!! Hope someone please has some insight.

[MikeMurphy]

Re: Just don't get it

Hi... I see that you mentioned in another thread that she may have hypothyroidism. Is she on thyroid meds?

Hypothyroidism can cause insulin resistance in dogs. The UTI can also cause high BG numbers.