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  • #16
    multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

    Hi, I am looking for guidance....specifically should i look into trying combo-insulins. (Short acting + Intermediate acting).

    My issue is that my dog Izzy has:
    • EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) under control
    • IMHA (Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia) under control, but simultaneously she was diagnosed with
    • Low Thyroid (under control) and
    • Diabetes.


    Because of her EPI, she cannot handle fiber or carbohydrates. Her EPI has been well managed for 7+ years. And then all hell broke loose last year and she developed the other conditions.

    I was able to get the Diabetes under control but she lost so much weight that that did not work- -so she is on Novolin N (intermediate) twice a day. Last week she developed Uveitis (inflammation in middle eye) which means there is some health condition going on. We think her diabetes triggered this.

    My problem is if i control her diabetes via food... she is literally starving- - way too much weight loss.

    If i feed the foods that agree with both EPI + Diabetes, i have to give her so much volume of food to meet the 1200 daily calories she needs that her BG spikes with just two meals given with the Novolin intermediate. (mostly protein)

    If i give her 3-4 smaller meals her BG spikes.

    She can handle (in small portions) chicken, tuna, beef, pork, celery, kale, free range eggs, low fat cottage cheese, a tiny bit of sweet potato... but i cannot give her enough to cover her daily needs.

    My thought is to maybe continue the intermediate acting insulin but give (try) a small dose of a fast acting insulin after each small 3-4 daily meals. Does this sound like something i should try to get this under better control?

    I have done so many curves on this poor thing that her inside lips looks like a meat grinder got at it... but it helped me understand that Izzy cannot handle fat, carbs or volume because of her diabetes. (she is fluttering in the 400's now... and to make matter worse, she has to be on prednisone until the Uveitis clears up.... but she is spiking so much that i am scared at this point!)

    Generally her BG curves will start to go down SLOWLY after a meal with intermediate insulin... but it never drops and then goes back up like a normal curve after 4-6 hours...... it continues to go slowly down even at the 11th-12th hour before the next meal... hence when i feed a small meal in-between it spikes the BG.

    So again.... would this maybe be another reason to try a combination of insulins.... such as short + intermediate acting insulins???

    SHe has never had low blood sugar. Her vision is already going...
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    ~olesia

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    • #17
      Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

      Hi Olesia and Izzie welcome

      I think your right about the insulin using abit if R fast acting with the nph after a meal. Others will be in to comment

      Then you could feed Izzie her 1200 calories or more into 2 meals every 12 hours to bring her weight up knowing that adding the R wont spike her bg. Just my thinking.
      Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
      20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

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      • #18
        Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

        sometimes the standard routine does not apply i actually switched jesse to one meal a day because of digestive issues

        so you would be surprised how many routines can work if kept consistent .

        giving a small dose of fast acting may work with every meal but you have to determine if its needed and have the correct response from food day in day out .r insulin you do want to stay with 6 hours apart so not to overlap with the next shot of r. your novolog and humolog work even faster and for jesse its out of her system in a few hours . now other dogs may respond differently

        Natalies Chris used r insulin exclusively and taras ruby was epi and did some useful techniques for her so reading those threads maybe helpful
        Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
        Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

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        • #19
          Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

          Thank you so much for your response... i just needed to know if my thinking of using fast acting and intermediate insulin was (hopefully) in the right direction.

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          • #20
            Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

            thank you.. i have no problem checking Izzy's BG daily..and she is a real trooper about having her blood taken..thank you for the suggesting the other threads that have had similar issues. I know Tara with Ruby as she was a member on the epi4dogs forum... and i do remember her giving Ruby a combination of insulins...it will be helpful to read those threads. thanks!

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            • #21
              Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

              No wonder I was thinking of you and Izzy today!

              yup! been there done that. Ruby would have been in terrible shape without Humalog. We sometimes used R too, but the picture was never as clear for me with that.

              Humalog you get by prescription and it is costly, but you can usually get your first pack of 5-3 ml. pens for free with an online coupon. Then you draw it up from the pen into a syringe. I would think the action profile of Humalog might cover the 4 meals nicely.

              I was terribly scared when I first starting working with the fast acting insulins and they do need to be monitored more closely, but they are an invaluable tool in such circumstances.

              So nice to hear your "voice". Sorry that it is because Izzy is so skinny.

              I'm not around all the time now, but don't hesitate to shoot me an email if I can help.

              Tara
              Tara in honor of Ruby.
              She was a courageous Boston Terrier who marched right on through diabetes, megaesophagus, and EPI until 14.
              Lucky for both of us we found each other. I'd do it all again girly.

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              • #22
                Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

                Our dog also has EPI and diabetes. We have something of the same issue that he needs to eat a lot to get enough nutrition into him.

                You have probably already tried this but we find that what seems to work for him is to split his meals into four but feed them in pairs ie 2/3 of breakfast at say 7 then the remaining 1/3 about 2 hours later, and the same again in the evening. He gets his insulin (Caninsulin / Vetsulin, which I think is some sort of blend of two different sorts) with the first instalment of food so it is well into his system by the time he has seconds. He does get a food rise (always has a mountain shaped curve coming low at fasting) but not usually too extreme.

                A year or so before he was diagnosed with diabetes we had had to change his enzyme to Lypex (like Creon in the US I think) and his EPI has been much better regulated with that. It is also easier in that you don't need to incubate the food, which is a slight convenience.

                He has had times of being very skinny - when his EPI was undiagnosed until I discovered what it was, and then again when he first got diabetes. It took a long time to get him even to stop losing weight, let alone putting it back on.

                Foodwise, he was on Orijen which seemed to suit him, then it became difficult to get hold of over here so we moved to Canagan which is quite similar and he is getting on well with that.

                Hope you can find a regime that works for you. So much of it is trial and error when you are dealing with more than one thing.
                Eddie - Lab x golden retriever. Weighed 63lbs. Ate Canagan. Diagnosed October 2012. 13units of Caninsulin twice a day. Had EPI as well as diabetes. Died 20 June 2017. Loved forever.

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                • #23
                  Re: multiple conditions/conflicting requirements

                  Well, like Tara I too was thinking about you the other day. Wondering if Izzy had become a full diabetic or things had returned to normal after her illness. I guess I have my answer. Ollie has been very ill lately (liver failure and pancreatitis) and would not eat what we had been giving him for months..boiled cod and HK Pref. The vet put us back on Low Protein vet food and things have exploded from there (literally!!). He has acid reflux and diharrea etc...all the usual symptoms. I was thinking of heading over to EPI4dogs and seeing if you had any suggestions. It appears we are both dealing the same issues. This morning I went out and bought 5 different kinds of canned grain free lower protein foods as well as a bag of Sojo Turkey (Dehydrated)..8%fat, low in carbs and grain free. I like the looks of it and I'm hoping he can get the calories he needs without causing any further harm. I also found a kibble with very good analysis, its called Canine Caviar - Special Needs.
                  I'm also trying to feed him 3 or 4 times a day as well as giving him Prednisone which has his BG all over the map. Sorry I don't have much in the way of advice to offer. I'm terrified to use the fast acting insulin...I can't count on his spike lasting long enough to try this. I hope you find the right combo for Izzy, shes such a cutie pie
                  Danielle and Ollie - 10.5 yo Silky Terrier May 17, 2003 - February 15, 2014. diagnosed Dec 28, 2012. See you on the other side Baby Bear.

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