Non-repeating BG numbers

[bontemp]

Hansel is a 10 y.o., 18# Miniature Schnauzer diagnosed 2 years ago. Currently on 10 units Vetsulin 2x/day, feeding Blue Buffalo Lamb or Chicken 2x/day. Problem is poor regulation and non-repeating bg numbers. Example - 6/20/20 begin 6a, end 6p, numbers went 627, 271,198,224,247,460. then 7/6/20 - 321,140,187, then 7/7/20 - 247,137,265 yet today 586 morn, 499 evening. Crazy numbers - aware of Somogyi effect but don’t see that pattern in these numbers. Changed meter, fresh strips, presumably good insulin. Could I be injecting in fat or some other error? Advice? Thanks in advance.

[MisterAlan]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Im kinda new here but i just recently got my dog regulated so ill toss in some stuff i know from here after scanning it through the thousands. I just wanted to ask you if you mean by poor regulation throughout the years or was it just recent for the BG fluctuations. If its recent try to remember if you had any routine change or if he has some kind of infection. Also people here mention that alot dogs change in insulin dosages over time as they get older so this could be one of those problems. My dog had similar numbers back a month and a half ago and after i ruled out infection i increase his dosage till i found a 80-100 nadir then i tweaked around with his food to balance it off. I found out that carbs played an important role in keeping the numbers level throughout the day but you might have to test it out patiently. im currently feeding my dog a homemade over dry food so i cant help on the diet there. Also is he showing symtoms of his diabetes such as drinking alot and urinating for example would be good information for us to go on.

[bontemp]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Thanks MisterAlan - Hansel only shows classic signs when bg over 600 i.e. gulping water. He hasn’t had signs of infections. Running a new curve today on 2 hr. basis and will post tomorrow. Thanks for reply.

[jesse girl]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Hi and welcome . Big swings in sugar can point to an imbalance of regulation

That could be a dose being to large , Food imbalance as mister Alan suggested the need for carbs to balance out insulin( high protein diets dont seem to work well ) , underlying heath issues and medications can all have an affect

Has regulation always looked like this ?

[sibhus]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Based on your numbers it appears you don't have somogyi as you have to reach the 70 point threshold for the body to release enough sugar to put the dog into persistently high values which last for 12-48 hours. This was my experience with somogyi as I experienced this early on from giving too much insulin. For starters, do you have another meter on hand to compare values just to rule out the meter?

If you've had your dog regulated for 2 years and are seeing some kind of change, your dog maybe experiencing something else that could be driving this spike. It might be worth taking your dog to a vet and have a CBC blood test and Urine analysis done just to make sure he is systemically ok as it will catch pretty much most everything including a infection. If thats fine than perhaps something with the food or insulin. I know I saw a 150 point rise in my dog due to stress from fireworks recently using the libre, where I saw this prominent spike on the data but then it came down after a few hours. But your doing the right thing in repeating the bg curve. Good luck.

[bontemp]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Reply - we did buy new meter and it does favorably compare to older one. His regulation over the past two years has varied, sometimes within the 250-300 range and other times spiking although food intake is at the same times and amounts. The actual food brand, as suggested, is of interest and we will be seeing the vet this week. We added three bg curves to our album HANSEL’S BG CURVES but can’t figure out how to display here.(click on our profile, BONTEMP for curves)
Yesterday (7/12/20) readings beginning at 6a(fed/shot)=349, 8a=180, 10a=188, 12p=246, 3:30p=302, 4:30p (fed/shot)=260; yet this morning we start with 6a=510?

[jesse girl]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Your pup may have dipped a bit low overnight and why you saw numbers in the 500s at 6 am . You did see a 200 point drop from 6 am to 8 am which could have triggered a mild response from the body

You could try an experiment if the early drops are consistent to try to slow them down . Early in jesses diagnosis I had a similar problem and I would give her a spoonful of honey before the big drop . By doing that her drop was slowed and also her subsequent spike up was slowed .now this just gave me some answers that i needed to add some highly digestible carbs to meal to combat early strong insulin

You can also try a temporary reduction in insulin maybe to 7 units and see if that flattens things out a bit but you may have to hold for 3 to 5 days to have the dose settle to get an answer . You may have to deal with some higher levels temporarily

You can also do a diet change that is more appropriate to how injected insulin is working for your dog . Now the numbers are not terrible . Insulin is working so thats good and getting to good levels . You just want to flatten the curve a bit to get it to be more stable levels

[Raysaint]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

bontemp, the shape of the numbers looks kinda like the bowl type curve, same as my dog. So it's good to know the insulin is working and is creating somewhat of a consistent pattern.

As for the non-repeating and different fastings, that's my dog all over. Diabetes can be like that for some dogs, and some humans (me included.) Can I explain it? No, diabetes has too many variables and the body is too complex to figure it out sometimes.

If I look at my tracking sheets, where I record my dog's every morning's fasting, not a lot of consistency, but at least most of the fastings are within the "good" range.
I asterisk the fastings I don't like (higher than normal), and they are probably 20% of the days within each month.
I've just accepted that is how it will be. And as long as he isn't showing any clinical signs, and is healthy, that's a victory for me. My vet agrees.

[bontemp]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Vet gave Hansel a clean bill of health except for the diabetes and her bg readings were in agreement with mine. Will stay at same insulin levels and change food to ROYAL CANIN VETERINARY DIET GLYCOBALANCE dry, with gradual intro, give it a week or two and run new curves. Thanks so much for all comments!

[jesse girl]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Vet gave Hansel a clean bill of health except for the diabetes and her bg readings were in agreement with mine. Will stay at same insulin levels and change food to ROYAL CANIN VETERINARY DIET GLYCOBALANCE dry, with gradual intro, give it a week or two and run new curves. Thanks so much for all comments!

Sounds like a plan

[MisterAlan]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Yeah sounds like a good plan and see how its goes. I had similar numbers when i was testing but mine were more drastic in the dip. He would go from fasting at 350-400 then 4 hours later Nadir to 80s then from there shoot up 400 insanely fast so he only stayed in the area thats low for probably 3 hours max which was not good. I was just feeding him protein and barley at this time and had to do more research into how fast and slow certain carbs release at. So many carbs and fibers to go through but i was lucky my first tweak worked. I reduced some barley and added some pinto beans which slowed releases while the barley is a medium release time and this seemed to level him off. I also found that adding more protein didnt affect his BG numbers only carbs did. I think i would have a harder time regulating my dog on a dry food since i dont know what carbs they use and how balanced it is. If this doesnt work out so well i dont mind helping with a homemade diet if you are up for it.

[bontemp]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Converted Hansel’s food to RC Glycobalance over a one week period then waited another week to run full curve. Results today: fed/inject 5:30 = 521, 8:30A = 263, 10:30A = 251, 12:30P = 289, 3P = 464, fed/inject 5P = 456. Looks advantageous to try to flatten the curve more; since he is on Vetsulin, with its fast acting component, would changing to Novolin N help flatten? Or would that increase the danger of “stacking” doses resulting in numbers that are too low? It is acknowledged that tweaking his food in the morning with a bit of carbs might slow the initial dive.Thanks for comments.

[jesse girl]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

You could also try to reduce the dose to see if you can reduce that big drop early in the curve as an easy thing to try before trying new insulin . Its also possible it may take a bit more time to settle with the new diet .

Insulin is working and you do have a decent range for a period of the day.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

i think you can try reducing the dose before changing insulin as the vetinsulin is working. drop one unit at a time wait then do a curve
i think the curve should flatten out.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Non-repeating BG numbers

Converted Hansel’s food to RC Glycobalance over a one week period then waited another week to run full curve. Results today: fed/inject 5:30 = 521, 8:30A = 263, 10:30A = 251, 12:30P = 289, 3P = 464, fed/inject 5P = 456. Looks advantageous to try to flatten the curve more; since he is on Vetsulin, with its fast acting component, would changing to Novolin N help flatten? Or would that increase the danger of “stacking” doses resulting in numbers that are too low? It is acknowledged that tweaking his food in the morning with a bit of carbs might slow the initial dive.Thanks for comments.

The insulin is lasting about 12 hours but is poorly balanced with digestion of food and conversion to sugar.

Substitution some of his food with something quickly digestible could definitely help flatten the curve. And, if you schedule allows, you can wait an hour or two to inject the insulin after eating, which would give the food a head start.

Every dog is different so you just have to experiment. Make one small change, see what happens.

There are a lot of dogs who don't do "consistent" - I don't know that anyone knows why. Blood sugar is so complex and affected by so many things that it's surprising more dogs (and people) aren't inconsistent! Plus there are a few breeds where I've seen more inconsistence - rottweilers are one and mini Schnauzers are another. They will cruise along for a while okay and then suddenly that insulin dose is too much or too little. Their people have had to just kind of go with it. Test and adjust the insulin when a major shift occurs.

They have to make sure it's a trend rather than a one-off or three-off. So track over time and if the change persists, you can adjust food and insulin to get better regulation.

Another issue at times is how insulin bottles are handled. In extreme weather conditions. they can be damaged sitting on a hot or cold loading dock, for example. So it's good to consider whether there's a problem with the insulin itself when an abrupt change occurs.

Natalie