Eddie Bear, RIP

[Eddie]

Hello - we are new to this forum and have already learnt a lot from this site for which we are very grateful.
Eddie was diagnosed two weeks ago. He has well-controlled EPI as well and has lost his sight for unrelated reasons. He is on medication for high blood pressure. So he has a lot going on!
We are in the UK and he has been started on 9 units of Caninsulin. His weight should be around 30kg but is currently 25kg. He is fed Orijen fish kibble. He's 8 and is a labrador cross.
Since we started with insulin his drinking has moderated but we still have two huge worries - a) continued weight loss - around 150g per day on average despite a good appetite, and b) awful weakness in his back legs so he can barely walk across the room and falls over easily.
The vet is going to do a glucose curve tomorrow (2 hour intervals). I am today getting some Methyl B12 pills to try to help with the neuropathy (if that is what it is). The vet also wants to re-scan him later in the week to look for a tumour on his pancreas - previous scan was inconclusive on this.
I suppose I am looking for any reassurance that anyone can give me to encourage me to think we can get him through this,and any advice as to whether what we are seeing is remotely likely to be attributable just to the diabetes. It's very hard to see him like this! Thanks for any replies.

[CraigM]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Welcome to the forum. i only have a moment since breakfast is on the table (Pacific NorthWest of the U.S.)

I've done a little conversion to help me 25kg = 55 pounds. A frequent starting dosage I've seen is .2 units per pound, so your 9 units is about correct to start. Some pups need quite a bit more, but we have to progress slowly. Once the blood glucose (BG) starts to come down he will be able to make better use of the food and probably gain weight.

Gotta run, wife is getting mad that the eggs are cold!

Craig

[amholmesy]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi there and welcome to you and Eddie

I know how daunting the whole thing is in the beginning when you first hear your pup is diabetic but it does get easier. This forum is fantastic and has been a life saver for me and CJ . The people here are so kind and have a wealth of information. I would recommend that you start home testing ASAP . It makes a huge difference and let's you know what is going on with Eddie . You can then act on the info . I just wonder if his blood glucose bg is very low and that it why he is has weakness in his back legs? The weight loss is most probally due to the diabetes - cj had the same problem and he has a mild form of pancreatitis which flares up now and again.

When they are regulated they put the weight back on . This can take time it all depends on the dog .

I am sure some of the experienced members will be along to offer you advice.

There could be something going on with the pancreas which hopefully your vet will see in the scan. Hang on in there it does get easier but home testing is the key and I would advise you to keep a journal and write down every detail each day about Eddie How much food he ate , what his bg is at fastings , walks, anything that is out of the ordinary then you can always go back and look for patterns. I do this every day as I test cj a lot - usually 4-5 times a day . I also write down how much food he ate how much water he drank , what sort of form is was in etc.

Anne -Marie and CJ

[buddy]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Eddie Welcome!

I have a schnauzer names Buddy who has diabetes. Buddy also was getting very weak in the hind quarters prior to diagnosis. His back legs would collapse on him frequently. As soon as we got him on insulin his hind quarters seemed to strengthen immediately and within a few weeks he was running and jumping and doing all sorts of athletic feats with no problems.

Like Eddie, Buddy has lost a lot of weight and i am working on getting it stabilized which will happen eventually. The eye opener to me was discovering that giving our dog too much food may actaully be increasing the weight loss because the insulin and Blood Glucose are "out of whack" -- those are the technical medical terms.

You'll learn a lot and eventually have Eddie's situation under control. The phrase I keep hearing is "every dog is different".

[Judi]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

there have been some people who had good luck with the B12 and regulation of the high blood sugar readings to get some strength back. hang in there!

[momofdecker]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Only have a few minutes but wanted to say welcome. Seems there have been a few labs/mixes that presented with leg weakness. Some threads to search...harley, blackjack, watson. Have been a few more but can't remember without searching. Best of luck to you in this new journey. Holli

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Thanks for the replies and encouragement - especially the assurance that it should get easier. A few specific points -
Buddy - Thanks for sharing your experience on Buddy's legs. Eddie's have got worse while on insulin. They seemed ok at the point when he was diagnosed and it has developed since then. I so much hope that they will improve as we get him regulated.
I am very interested in what you say about moderating the amount of food. I tend to give him a lot of food because he doesn't absorb it very well due to the EPI. I may try a small reduction.
Anne-Marie - I have learnt from this forum that most people home-test. It isn't something our vet has suggested but it would be a lot easier than taking him into the vet every time we want to check it. I'll have to talk to them and overcome my squeamishness about drawing blood.
We too wondered if actually his BG was low and that was causing the leg weakness. The curve tomorrow will confirm but we did a spot check at 5.30 pm yesterday at vet's (just when insulin and tea were due)and it was 15.5 mmol/l or about 280 mg/dL (we seem to use different units here which is unhelpful!).
I am keeping a sort of journal but I need to get it into a better format.
Thank you all so much for replying. I am very grateful.
Antonia and Eddie

[CraigM]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

The two thoughts I think is important would be "every dog is different" and "consistency".

What works in one pup, might not be the same in another. The best example would be the response to insulin and food. Some pups digest their food quickly which might show a substantial increase (rise) in their blood glucose (BG) within the first hour or two after eating / injection. Others might digest their meals slowly and actually have lower BG an hour after the meal / injection, and then rise later in the cycle. There isn't a "correct" response, just whatever your guy decides to be! Actually, we have dogs in the forum that seem to switch from one response to another! EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT. Another example would be the response from exercise. Some pups can have a big drop in BGs with moderate exercise, while others don't seem to be affected by walks / play. My Annie doesn't seem to be affected by normal walks, but if we give her a new squeaky toy she will go berserk running around with the new toy for hours! That would drop her BG! Home blood testing is the best way, probably only way, to learn what exercise, stress, car rides, delivery person, other dog / cats, you name it can do to the BG.

Consistency is also very important to most dogs. Feed EXACTLY the same food, EXACTLY the same amount, at the same time (12 hours apart) every day. Yes, there are exceptions, but most find regulation easier when food is kept constant. Many of us use a kitchen food scale to weigh their meal because measuring cups are not accurate enough for our pups. I swear 0.1 ounce (2.8g) makes a difference in Annie (might not, but sure seems it does). For most, between meal snacks / treats need to be ended; one dog biscuit mid day will cause Annie's BG to rise. There are diabetic friendly snacks that might be OK in moderation. After blood testing, I frequently give one frozen green bean as a treat! I think it's getting something from my hand that makes her happy, and not the quantity. Yes, every few months Annie might get a "bad" treat, jerky, rawhide, bone, etc., but I know her BG will be high the rest of the day.

Lets see if anyone else has added more comments.

Craig & Annie

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Sorry - I have one more quick question which is worrying me a bit.
Eddie has the same amount of food and insulin morning and evening but in the evening he seems to have a phase of getting a bit uncomfortable and panting for a while (which he doesn't usually do at all) between 3 and 5 hours after tea and insulin. It then wears off and he is ok for the rest of the night.

Does anyone have any idea what might be causing this? (I appreciate it's difficult without any idea where his BG is at the time)

Thanks
Antonia

[Patty]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia and welcome to you!

The eye opener to me was discovering that giving our dog too much food may actaully be increasing the weight loss because the insulin and Blood Glucose are "out of whack" -- those are the technical medical terms.

John's technical medical term refers to when blood sugar isn't yet balanced with the amount of insulin needed. Insulin is the key that unlocks the "door" to the cells. It allows the glucose to enter from the bloodstream and be used for nutrition. When there isn't enough insulin or it isn't balanced well, the glucose remains in the blood stream and blood sugar is then high. When the cells aren't able to utilize the food efficiently, weight loss occurs.

I would say if your dog is on the appropriate amount of food/calories, I'd wouldn't decrease the food. You'll want to look at your dog's trends over the course of the day, comparing curves. Then there are things that can be done to work on a better balance if needed.

Home testing is a wonderful tool! I'd definitely encourage it
Patty

[Patty]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Antonia,
The panting could be due to a rise or a drop in bg (blood glucose). Hard to know without a test.

I'd look into home testing if you're up for it. http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html There are some great videos here that can get you started.

I like the Accuchek Softclix for lancets. Many others prefer a larger gauge 25 or 26 (lower the number, the larger the needle for lancets and syringes).

Patty

[k9diabetes]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia,

Any idea how high Eddie's blood sugar is at the moment?

Diabetic neuropathy is not very common in dogs. It usually occurs in one of two situations:

- the blood sugar has been at a very high level for a considerable amount of time (35 and higher)

- there is some other nerve problem in the spinal cord that abnormally high but not sky high blood sugar is layering over the top of and compounding the other nerve problem.

Do you have access to a neurologist? Has a thorough basic neurological exam been done by the vet?

A neurologist is a good investment, if only for a one time consult, because they can tell you so much more about the source of the weakness through noninvasive testing.

Natalie

[Blackjack'smom]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hello..I was just skimming through the forum and saw your posts. Just wanted to let you know that Blackjack has had the back leg weakness after first being diagnosed. It lasted for at least three weeks...really bad, where we had to help him to a standing position and taking steps,etc. Everything was a major effort. I wanted to let you know that there's hope! We are now eight months into this journey and Blackjack is just now at the point where I would say we have hopefully found his "ideal" food and insulin dosage. He also had lost a lot of weight..was down to 73 lbs. at his lowest point from his normal 93 lbs.If I hadn't researched the back leg weakness and found this forum back at his beginning stages, we would not have realized that there was hope for improvement! He is walking normally now and back up to his original weight too. Hang in there! It is so discouraging when they are at this stage, but there is a good chance that he can recover! Donna

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Thanks for the replies. It is fantastic being able to benefit from all your experiences.
Natalie - The highest reading we have had is 24.5 (around 432) but we have only done spot checks when at the vet. I don't think he was undiagnosed for long as he lost weight very suddenly (we were weighing him every week) and got thirsty very suddenly. We have not had a neurological exam. I will talk to the vet about that though. They seem a lot less concerned about his legs than we are.

Blackjack - I was pointed to your thread and found that reading it gave me hope that we might get Eddie through this (though I also heed Natalie's comments that it might not even be neuropathy). If we did not think that this might be reversible we would have to think very hard about Eddie's quality of life which at the moment is obviously not great. We definitely want to give him the chance to get through this even though I hate to see him struggling.
Oddly enough Eddie is exactly the same breeding as Blackjack ie golden retriever father and labrador mother. (He looks like a slim (now very slim!) black retriever).
Thanks
Antonia

[Blackjack'smom]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Oh.....Then he has to be a great dog...lol..that golden/lab cross! I find it to be very interesting that most of the dogs it seems that exhibit the hind leg weakness with diabetes seem to be labs or lab mixes! It was to the point that if we didn't know that there was a chance for improvement,we seriously would have questioned whether or not to go on with the way he was there for awhile. I know where you are at, that is for sure..