Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

[Lee04]

I just typed out the longest post and then hit submit and I got an error saying I didn't have permission to post, so this is a test post.

[CraigM]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Your posts will need to be approved by a moderator until your membership is approved by the forum owner. Natalie, the owner, will likely see your request later this evening and contact you. In the meantime, you might tell us a little about your pup: breed, weight, type of insulin, when diagnosed, anything you want to share.

I'll probably be around the forum later and will help get your posts online.

Craig

[Lee04]

Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I just posted the longest message and should have read the "new here" helpful tips so that I didn't lose it before I timed out....and I cried

This crazy diabetes is something isn't it?! Our dog, Dasani, was diagnosed on 3/21. He is an 11yr old miniature schnauzer and weighs 26 pounds all muscle.
He had started drinking more water and urinating more and the night before we took him to the vet, he peed on the floor right in front of me. He has never had an accident in the house, so I knew something was wrong. His blood glucose was 473 and no ketones or infection. They sent us home with w/d food and Vetsulin 6 units every 12 hours and to come back in a week for a curve.

Went back for the curve and they upped him to 7 units and back in another week for a curve. After that curve they liked the numbers and said to bring him back in a month.

Two days after the good curve, we woke up to him laying in urine in his cage. I decided I needed to be more involved in this and bought the Alphatrak 2 monitor and have done some testing. We were doing ok, still having what I think are high numbers, but figured I should do what they say. We had to buy another bottle of Vetsulin and I decided to read the manufacturer insert and it said to "vigorously shake" the bottle, so I began to do that every day. It wasn't long before Dasani was back to drinking loads of water and needing to go out ever hour or two. Here are some numbers the week after the good curve and after I shook the Vetsulin.

4/6 - original bottle of Vetsulin
food/7 units @ 5:55am
11:59am 292
2:45pm 168
5:09pm 469
food/7 units @5:50pm
7:00pm 462
7:42pm 276

4/8 - original bottle of Vetsulin
fasting after 13 hrs - 515
food/7 units @ 6:52am
1:07pm 189
4:52pm 371

4/9 - original bottle of Vetsulin
fasting after 12hrs 468
food/7 units @ 6:38am
11:45am 191
2:45pm 489
3:05pm 414
5:55pm 362
food/7 units @ 6:10pm
8:20pm 359
8:42pm 241 ( after 20 min walk)
10:20pm 221

The following numbers are after starting new Vetsulin bottle shaken
4/24
food 7 units @ 6:45am
2:36pm 511
food 7 units @ 5:50pm
7:15pm 241

4/25 - food 7 units @ 6:45am
9:01am 555
12:34pm 417

4/26
fasting after 13 hrs - 466
food /7 units @ 6:50am
11:00am 716
2:20pm 615

Decided to use the last doses of the original/first bottle of Vetsulin and stop using the shaken bottle starting with the evening does on 4/26 and here are the numbers.

4/27
food/7 units @ 6:00am
7:40am 697
1:10pm 379
food/7 units @ 5:25pm
7:50pm 396

Took Dasani back to the vet on 4/28 to discuss the insulin issue and numbers. Also took the Alphatrak to make sure it's reading the same as their numbers, and it is. Told them about the "shaking" of the Vetsulin and showed them the manufacture suggestions and they had never heard of anything like that and once again told me to never shake insulin, only gently roll. Got a new bottle of Vetsulin, and they looked at all my numbers and said to stay at 7 units for a week and we will do a curve. If his number stays at 500 and doesn't go under we would either go up on the insulin or maybe change insulins.

Here are more numbers after the vet visit:

4/28
Fasting after 12 1/2 hours - 514
food 7 units at 6:00am
7:50am 587
10:30am 366
5:10pm 246
food 7 units at 5:20pm - this is the new Vetsulin (not shaken)
7:05pm 473
7:37pm 319 (after 20 minute walk)
9:20pm 432

4/29
Fasting after 12 hrs - 308
food 7 units at 6:00am
8:30am 458
10:00am 443
12:00pm 470
2:00pm 223
4:10pm 486
5:15pm 638 - b4 food/insulin
food 7 units at 5:15pm
10:02pm 302

4/30
He had a great day today, so decided not to poke him much
food/7 units @ 6:00am
5:10pm 305
food /7 units 5:20pm
10:00pm 268

Then we woke up to him laying in a pool of urine in his cage this morning....what happened? He wasn't drinking and peeing yesterday, he was like his pre-diabetic self. Full of energy and interested in everything.
I'm baffled.

Here are today's numbers
5/1
fasting number after 11 hrs - 589
food and 7 units @ 6:10am
10:20am 396
12:20pm 290
2:20pm 175
3:00pm 153 - took reading because he was restless and barking for food
gave him 2 pieces of his w/d kibble
4:20pm 318
5:15pm 448
food and 7 units @ 5:45pm
8:00pm 521
10:10pm 301

So here we are. I can't tell you how often I have come to this forum to read over the last month. This place has been a safe landing spot with so much information. We love our little man so much and just want to see if we can get him better. Any thoughts/ideas anyone has are so appreciated.
Thanks for reading.
Lee

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Hi Craig,
Thanks for the information. I just re-typed my long...oh so very long...post with all kinds of information, so hopefully it will show up soon.

This is a great place, with so much wonderful information. So glad I found you guys.
Lee

[jesse girl]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

hi and welcome

your boy really bounces around with blood sugar its like sometimes insulin is good and other times it doesn't work well at all

i guess you know schnauzers can be a bit difficult to regulate but usually they see some constant resistance to insulin . your boy seems to bounce around quite a bit without that constant resistance

its possible the dose maybe to much. some of us like my jesse needed less than a starting dose my jesse the same weight needs about 8 units total for the day sometime less . now many schnauzers seem to need more than most but thats not a guarantee. big swings in blood sugar can point to a dose being to much and as the dose is raised things actually get worse . the problem is the only way to know for sure is reducing the dose and that maybe lower than the starting dose and have to give it a week to settle with no guarantees

[amydunn19]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I just have a minute as my eyes are very sleepy along with my brain. Welcome!

Did the vet check triglycerides ? Schnauzers have notoriously high levels and that can be a obstacle to stability. Fish oil has been known to help.

It is still quite early. Some dogs bounce around quite a bit early on, then one day resistance breaks and the numbers start falling their way. The insulin may need to build up more and the body get used to it.

I am going to read back over your first post and see if I see anything when I am fresher tomorrow.

[amydunn19]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

You might have him checked for an infection - UTI just in case. It is likely those high numbers are just due to not having the right combo.

The problem you face is the lower numbers on his 5/1 readings because you always base dosing on the lowest number and that number says you shouldn't increase insulin. But, it could have been a fluke and I would try to do another curve tomorrow or as soon as you are able. If you still get those 150's, raising insulin dosage runs the risk of driving that number too low.

Are you injecting immediately after he eats? Are you feeding exactly 12 hours apart? No snacks? Except the one you mentioned.

[Cara Sandler]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Also, sometimes you "catch" the diabetes as it is developing, and the dog may still be producing a little of his/her own insulin. As the dog stops producing insulin entirely, he needs more insulin to regulate him. It looks as though the diabetes is getting "worse" but in reality, if that is the problem, it eventually (actually, fairly quickly) stabilizes.

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

jesse_girl,
Thank You for taking time to give me some thoughts!!

I've wondered if the dose is too high. Everything is bouncing all over the place. I'm just trying so very hard to be patient with all of this and hate that he is most likely uncomfortable with the swings.

amydunn19,
Thanks for taking to read my crazy long post. He has had blood work done recently and they didn't mention triglycerides being high, but I will ask. About a possible UTI, i have the urine strips that test 10 things, and his leukocytes and nitrate readings are normal, as well as no blood. I've been doing the periodic check for keytones and look at all the other values, too, just in case he might have an UTI.

I had a feeling with those low numbers we shouldn't increase the dose. We feed him at 6:00am and 5:00pm. He just can't wait til 6:00pm for the food. Do you think that hour could do this?

No snacks except yesterday and now today we've been in the car driving to the beach for the week and he wanted something at 3:00pm so I gave him 3 pieces of the w/d. Yes, I inject within 1-2 minutes of him finishing his bowl. I've worried all day on the drive that he is getting too hot, too crazy at bathroom breaks with the normal schnauzer busyness. He has had a fun, but exhausting day, and of course I worry about him burning through his insulin. He likes to be on the go.

Hi Cara,
Thanks for taking the time to read this and give me your thoughts. You know in December he had some sort of infection and ran a 104 degree fever and they did complete blood work and nothing showed regarding the diabetes then. Also they said his kidney function looked good.

He has one issue and that is a high Alk Phosphatase level and it has been going up steadily for the last 5 years. When he as 4yrs old he had what they believe was and FCE, which is common for schnauzers, too. He was initially paralyzed, but with special therapy (underwater treadmill, etc), we got all functioning back with the exception of his front left paw. He will drag it and he wears a bootie when we go for a walk. In the recent months the back leg on the same side has had some weakness, which didn't surprise us, as he is getting older and we just blamed the old FCE injury. Now I'm wondering if its diabetic neuropathy? One of the vets is pushing cushings, because of the high Alk Phosphatase, but he has never had any other symptoms, such as the pot belly, hair loss, etc.

All of it is a mystery to me and I'm just trying to soak up all information that I can, in hopes I can help him feel better.

Again, thank you all for taking time to read my post and give me your wise words.
This place is a lifeline to me right now.
Lee

[Eddie]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Hello and welcome!

We use the UK version of Vetsulin and were specifically told not to shake it but only roll gently as it is easy to damage the insulin in some way, so you should carry on with just the rolling and I always make sure that the liquid is uniform ie no lumpy white bits floating in the liquid.

I know it will feel as if it is taking a long time, some people find it takes much longer to get their dog relatively stable. I don't mean to discourage you at all but only to stress that you are doing all the right things and there probably isn't anything else anyone else could do differently to speed up the process. Sometimes you just have to keep plugging away at it then suddenly you start getting good results. Patience is essential in this process!

Our dog had diabetic neuropathy when first diagnosed. It was almost as if his back legs and tail went numb - no pain but just no feeling and so no control over them. We gave him extra B12 methyl tablets which may or may not have helped and gradually, as his blood sugar levels got steadier, his legs got better.

For what it's worth we quite often had to feed at 7am then 6pm ie an hour off the ideal 12 hours interval and I did not see that it really made a real difference to Eddie's numbers.

Antonia

[amydunn19]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I don't think an hour is a huge deal.

The numbers are quite erratic but schnauzers are often problematic to get stable. Sometimes, it just takes time and patience. Hard to be patient at a time like this.

I would stay away from Cushings testing especially if he doesn't look like a Cushings dog. There are many false positives in unregulated diabetic dogs. The conditions share so many common symptoms. Vets always seem to bring up Cushings when they don't have any quick answers but you are still fairly early in the process.

I think it is more a matter of food and insulin not matching up.

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Hi Antonia,
Thanks for the encouragement! I now know that shaking the Vetsulin was a no no! I really do think I damaged that bottle of insulin. Interesting information on B-12. Our little man might just benefit from that, so I'm adding to my notes to ask the vet next time we speak.
I'm sticking with the 6:00am and 5:00pm feeding for now and we will see how it continues to shake out.
Thanks again for reading and sharing your thoughts.

Hi amydunn,
I've been wondering the same about the food/insulin and how quickly or not that he digests food and starts using the insulin.

Soooo, on that note. We are on vacation this week, and he is with us so I know the change of pace and extra things to check out must be having an effect on his numbers. I decided to keep checking him over the last couple of days and here are the numbers. Today's numbers are crazy, compared to what they have been.

5/3
Fasting after 12 1/2 hours - 591
food and 7units @ 6:00am
8:00am - 573
10:45am - 233
1:45pm - 122 - gave frozen green bean w/test
3:00pm - 203 - gave frozen green bean w/test
4:55pm - 472
food and 7 units @ 5:10pm
7:30pm - 265
9:55pm - 124 - this scared me after all the highs- gave him frozen green bean

5/4
Fasting after 12 1/2 hours - 553
food and 7 units @ 6:00am
10:15am - 176
12:05pm - 144
1:20pm - 132
2:20pm - 114
3:30pm - 171
4:30pm - 434
food and 7 units @ 5:00pm

I began to give him a frozen green bean with tests from 1:20pm on. Seeing the lower numbers surprises and scares me. I know that sounds crazy, but now all I can think of is, are you going to crash?! Like I said we are away from home, but it's quite here, just us in a house, but he is exploring more when we go outside.

Just had to share the latest info and see if you guys have any ideas.
Hope everyone is have a great day!

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

those are great numbers
except for the fasting high mostly in the am
i think if you drop back 1 hour to feed at 5 pm you,ll see those fasting numbers lower.
13 hours between food and insulin is a long time
what do you think

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Hi Riley and Mo,
Thanks for reading and helping me with this.

I know what you mean about that hour, and have struggled with trying to do exactly 12 hours. He wants food at 5:00pm so I cave and feed him. Just doing all the extra testing, I can see that at the 11 hour mark, 5pm(feeding at 6:00am and feeding at 5pm) he is already between 400 and 500. I'm guessing if I stretch it to 12 hours he would be 500 or higher, not much different than the am fasting numbers.

Do you think that means with his activity and the way he digests the food, he is blowing through the insulin and starting to climb at 11 hours. I know with the lower numbers the last couple of days, we must be at a good dose. So how can I get those high numbers down without driving the lower numbers down even further.

Also, I know I've read it somewhere and right now my brain is on overload, but can someone tell me at what low number do I need to be concerned and start monitoring for going lower and trouble with hypoglycemia?

Thanks again, everyone!
Have a wonderful day
Lee

[jesse girl]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

i think anything under a 100 you should be concerned this early into the diagnosis my jesse can get uncomfortable at about 70 on her meter

i dont think the hour difference is having much affect on the numbers and maybe ok i do something similar with jesse

the dose still maybe to much you could slowly back the does down by a half unit and if you see that higher fasting come down you could continue till your at a range you are comfortable with

the trip could be providing a lower trend with all the change in scenery