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  • #46
    Re: BUDDY

    Janie, is correct... one thing at a time.

    You wrote this yesterday:

    The changes I have made to his diet the past 3 days are: I have cut back on the food from 1 1/2 cup twice per day to 1 1/4 twice per day. I also am not feeding him lean hamburger or chicken breast with his meals. I also feed him 20 minutes before giving him the shots whereas in the past I always just gave him the shot at the same time as the food. I was planning on adding a little more heavier food like Blue Buffalo -- maybe 1/3 Blue Buffalo and 2/3 Hills WD Prescription but I wanted to see how big a role feeding 20 min prior to giving the shot and doing away with the 5 or 6 small pieces of hamburger and chicken along with his food.

    Are your transistioning Buddy over to a different food? And if so, I would stick with whatever food you are going to give him, and not a mix of food, unless you are changing him over. For some dogs, it takes longer to transistion, especially if there is tummy upset.

    You also mentioned that you did not give hamburger, but perhaps this morning you did?

    I agree, I would leave out the hamburger, transition over to the food you would like to feed Buddy, and keep an eye out for lows. Let us just do this for now, and then see what type of curve Buddy has. We can then tweak later.

    I would recommend getting a scale, if to measure out his dry food. This keeps things really consistent. But 1 tab is one Tablespoon.

    Barb
    Barb & Abby 12/24/1999-12/31/2013 ~ dx 5/10/2011 ~ Forever in my heart ~

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    • #47
      Re: BUDDY

      Thanks Janie and Barb.

      I only gave a total of 1 1/4 cups of dog food this morning : 1/2 cup was his old non-diabetic dog food Science Diet Lite and 3/4 cup was his Hills WD Prescription dog food for diabetic dogs.

      Yes, I think there is no doubt I need to cut out the hamburger to get this figured out. I thought after his 85 reading yesterday morning that he needed something to buffer the insulin that was dropping his BG so much and so quickly.

      I realize that is why I added higher carb food like Science Diet Lite but since it is "lite" I thought a little hamburger may help -- since prior BG curves that were taken after feeding hamburger in addition to his Hill's WD Prescription held the BG to around 150 to 170 level.

      Good idea to get a scale.

      I will feed from here on until next BG test 1 1/4 dog food with 1 1/8 cup being the normal Hill's WD Prescription and 1/8 cup being Science Diet Lite.

      I don't thnk I will be moving Buddy over to a new variety until /unless BG tests reveal that is perhaps the proper direction.

      What I would like to do is flatten the BG curve and that is why I was increasing the carbs with the new food -- too prevent the morning plunge from 300s to 85 (or 600s to 150 earlier).

      To do this may mean higher highs and higher lows in the short term. Later, after a flatter curve presents itself, I could gradually and slowly increase the insulin to slowly and methodically bring the whole curve down.

      In fact, maybe Buddy was in the mid 300s before eating this morning and so by adding all the extra food, maybe I did level out the curve somewhat i.e. 322 at 9am vs 85 at 9am yesterday -- though the BG may be moving up way too fast now in the afternoon -- i.e. 500s or so.

      I could test this afternoon but I really don't want to for awhile as I am running out of Buddy's goodwill, it seems.

      Thanks Barb for Tab explanation -- that prevents me from starting at something ridiculous like 1 cup.
      Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

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      • #48
        Re: BUDDY

        Wanted to share this with you:

        Sat bgs
        5:30am 129 food test
        9:45a 174
        walk and treats at 10am
        1:00pm 108 fishoil/treat
        3:00p 175
        5:30p no test, food and shot
        8:30pm 266

        Fast forward to:

        Wed bgs
        no 5am test, food and shot
        11:am 268
        2:30pm 161, snacks for a walk, too much (see next test)
        5:30pm 480 food and shot
        8:00pm 246

        Thurs bgs
        5:30am 374 food and shot
        11 am 214
        1:45p 171
        5:25pm 394 food and shot
        9:00pm 278

        Here is the frustration, why are Wed and Thursday not as good as Saturday? Maybe the short walk? But I don't raise the insulin because of that 108 on Saturday -and he got the treats both before and after. So much of it is timing, the food, when the insulin peaks, the walks, etc. This thing can sure make you crazy if you let it!! Actually, I am thinking I may raise the dose by 1/4, we have been on 3.5 units Levemir for at least 10 days.
        Last edited by BoJanie; 11-16-2012, 03:59 PM. Reason: added dose info

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        • #49
          Re: BUDDY

          Hi Janie -- interesting curves!

          Last Saturday started great and stayed great. Congrats on that!

          Bo is doing great on Levemir -- which must be a big relief after dealing with NPH. In fact after reading about how many schnauzers do best on Levemir, I was just going to ask our vet for Levemir to start.

          I wonder what you may have done last Friday to get such a low reading early Saturday morning.

          Levemir seems to work very well and steady until around 3:00pm when it wears off significantly over the next 2 hours.

          I wonder if you used the AlphaTrak 2 for those tests. I took a sample that was 300 with AlphaTrak -- but relion showed 420 (i.e. 280 * 1.5 = 420). I know they are usually close enough but I have had some extreme readings with relion.

          Also, sometimes the blood sample I get is rather small or has a clearish watery look to it. I have to wonder if these tiny samples are not off abit. I asked our vet to check our relion and alphatrak 2 with his lab sample -- they were right in line -- but that was with a good sized sample drawn from Buddy's neck. So I think if you have a good sample the home monitors are great, but if you get some tiny sample, I wonder why the reading couldn't be off.

          The question that comes to mind is: How do you know last Saturday won't be the norm if you continue on with the current dose of 3.5? Some on this forum say it takes awhile to get our dogs regulated. It seems you are having oustanding results for the relatively short time Bo has been on Levemir.
          Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

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          • #50
            Re: BUDDY

            You know there are also some dogs that it is really hard to walk them in the first few hours after insulin because it is stronger for them during this time. Ali was one and her bg could drop over 100 points. Intervention then sometimes impacted the rest of the day and resulted in higher numbers so we changed the exercise time. Something to consider.
            Patty and Ali 13.5yrs 47lbs diagnosed May '08 Ali earned her wings October 27, 2012, 4 months after diagnosis of a meningioma ~ Time is precious ~

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            • #51
              Re: BUDDY

              Thanks for the encouragement, yes Levemir has been so helpful for us and we are pleased. If NPH works for Buddy that would be great, less costly. As to the blood samples, I don't worry about the small red drop. If the AT2 reads it, I figure it is enough to be accurate. But as we test the lip,if it has saliva mixed it, I often retest.

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              • #52
                Re: BUDDY

                Patty,

                You are exactly right. Buddy also reacts quickly to the Novolin N and exercise can drop his BG 100 pts as well.
                Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: BUDDY

                  I would be interested in hearing any thoughts about my BG readings tonight:

                  Normally Buddy's BG curve looks about like this:

                  6:30 am 300 to 400
                  9am 70 to 150
                  noon 225
                  2 pm 300
                  4 pm 320 after walk
                  6:30 pm 350 to 450

                  I checked Buddy tonight with AlphaTrak 2 strips and monitor and he was:

                  6:30 pm 84 A VERY SURPRISINGLY LOW READING. I fed his full food -- 1 1/4 Hills WD Prescription
                  7pm 170 still very low compared to his 300 to 400s always in the past
                  7:20 220 -- checked with relion and he was 210 (140 * 1.5 = 210)

                  I have not given him a shot because of the abnormally low readings. It seems almost like Buddy's pancreas started working.

                  I am afraid to give his shot because of the low readings. The 6 unit shot of NololinN has at times dropped him from 400s to below 100 within 2 hours.
                  Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: BUDDY

                    i think it shows the dose maybe to much and it maybe carrying over into the next 12 hour cycle and yes its possible he is still producing insulin

                    if overlap is the factor when that clears you should see a substantial rise and you would think you would see that at hour 6 if still holding steady there maybe some insulin being produced but dont get excited over possibilities not many diabetic that were diagnosed were possible miss diagnosed

                    you could dramatically cut the dose in half if the numbers are above 200 or higher dont expect much until after a few days to get an idea where things are going to settle if you continue to see lower numbers i would not hesitate to cut the dose further its kind of like a reset and if more insulin is needed you can raise back up more slowly this round

                    just a thought
                    Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
                    Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

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                    • #55
                      Re: BUDDY

                      Thanks Jessie Girl.

                      Yes, I tested again and now the BG is up to 412. I gave a 3 unit dose of Novolin N.

                      Buddy was diagnosed two months ago and he was started on 4 units and moved to 5 units after 2 weeks. He was moved to 6 units a month ago and he's been getting 6 units the past 4 weeks.

                      This is the first time he has ever had a low reading during shot time -- whether it be morning or evening.

                      He has always been between 300 and 500 in the eve. So this is a very unique event.

                      I didn't think there would be an overlap as I haven't given Buddy his shot yet tonight and he's always had a u-shaped curve. I have taken 5 BG curves the past 4 weeks and they all have had the U-shaped curve starting at anywhere from the low 300's to as high as the 600s at both 6:30 am and 6:30 pm. Here is an example:

                      6:30 am 400
                      8:30 am 150
                      10:30 am 175
                      12:30 pm 220
                      2:30 pm 300
                      4:30 pm 325 after walk
                      6:30 pm 425

                      I have been reading and I'm thinking this may be a honeymoon event -- which has to do with fluctuations in beta cell function more than anything else. If so, this will be just a temporary situation and perhaps I will need to reduce his insulin temporarily until I see things changing.
                      Last edited by buddy; 11-29-2012, 08:20 PM.
                      Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: BUDDY

                        Just wanted to express my appreciation for you Jesse Girl and this forum. I know a lot of the basics but have never been confronted with anything like honeymooning or insulin resistance....which would scare me like a deer in the headlights. Thank goodness for you, Natalie, Patty and all the others who help us walk through all those really scary things, through sharing their experiences. I think of what Tami went through with Soaphie...or was it Sydney. I can't help but think of where all those challenging cases would be without the help of this group.

                        So with that being said, I would have to defer, other then to say that some amount of a reduction seems called for.

                        Incase overlap is occurring be careful you don't wait to long to give the injection, whichever dose you go with.

                        Tara
                        Tara in honor of Ruby.
                        She was a courageous Boston Terrier who marched right on through diabetes, megaesophagus, and EPI until 14.
                        Lucky for both of us we found each other. I'd do it all again girly.

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                        • #57
                          Re: BUDDY

                          Thanks Tara.

                          I enjoy reading your many posts and learn a lot from them.

                          I am kinda just grasping in the dark about the honeymoon diagnosis. I thought the 84 reading at 6:30 was an error until I checked twice within the next hour and also got very low readings and I double checked with my Relion meter.

                          I just wonder what would have happened had I not tested and instead just given the full 6 unit dose -- since Buddy is very sensitive to NPH -- as I mentioned earlier -- he drops from 400 to 100 quite easily at times within a 2 hour window. He went from 365 to 68 two days ago in the morning between 6:30 am feed and shot to the 9:30 am BG test.

                          I have only done 5 full curves the past 4 weeks but I do lots of spot checks at different times and that was what I was doing tonight.
                          Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: BUDDY

                            There may not be an answer beyond "weird happens." I consider any off blood sugar level just one of those blips until it becomes a trend, which it often doesn't.

                            Not to say ignore it - Any time you see unusually low blood sugar, a reduction in dose is called for. It's just that there may not be any identifiable reason for why it happened.

                            Sounds like you've had a few low readings so I would absolutely make at least a small reduction in the dose going forward, if only to account for "weird" days. And if I had encountered that with my dog, I would have given him a small amount of insulin once his blood sugar was up around 200.

                            I always try to remember that we are replacing an exquisitely sensitive insulin delivery system that responds to blood sugar constantly throughout the day with two shots of insulin a day and a controlled diet. It's almost ridiculous that it works as well as it does because it's really a very blunt instrument compared to a healthy pancreas.

                            With our limited ability to provide insulin, there are just bound to be days when the car goes off the rail. Most of them time, it rights itself fairly quickly and little intervention is needed. So you want to concentrate on trends and patterns and dose accordingly. With the low readings you've been getting, that means dropping the insulin dose a bit.

                            If he is honeymooning, you will continue to see lower to normal blood sugar as the insuiln dose is repeatedly reduced. Our dog almost went off of insulin thanks to honeymooning but when the pancreas finally gave out entirely, it did so very quickly.

                            Natalie

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                            • #59
                              Re: BUDDY

                              Thanks Natalie.

                              That info helps alot as I was not prepared for dealing with such a situation.

                              This morning Buddy was 469 and I fed him and gave him a shot. Though I will reduce the dose from 6 to 5 1/2, the dose I gave this morning was 6 because I wanted to see how Buddy responds to the higher carb food added to his Hills WD Prescription this morning.

                              Three times in the past couple days I have given Buddy 10 kibbles of Science diet lite to go along with his Hill's WD Prescription to see if the added carbs blunt the insulin from dropping so fast. It seemed to do so. It seemed to stop the drop in the at the low 200s. However this morning it did not as I just tested and Buddy was at 119 at 9 am.

                              I want to try to move Buddy towards a higher carb food like Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight dry because he is a fast responder to the insulin and I wanted to try to blunt that plunge.

                              I didn't want to just reduce the insulin dose because I waited all Oct with 2 weeks of a 4 dose and 2 weeks of a 5 dose and was never able to drop the 7am and 7pm numbers down much. The month of November, using 6 units , did not drop the 7am and 7pm numbers down much either.

                              So the goal was a flatter curve, although maybe a more elevated curve early on -- perhaps a range of 300 to 200 to 300 range (from the current 400 to 100 to 400 range), then I could increase the insulin slowly to bring down the entire flatter albeit elevated curve.
                              Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: BUDDY

                                Hi there

                                It looks like Buddy and CJ are having the same problem low BG at shot time in the evening. I have just changed CJ's diet so maybe that it the reason but it worries me too those low nos are scary!. Lets hope Natalie is right about the weird happening. Hope Buddy's Bg levels settle down for you.
                                Anne-Marie
                                Anne-Marie and CJ Westie , Born 13 Jan 2004, dx May 2012, Weight 9.5kg, 6 iu Caninsulin Twice daily. Mixture of food - baby formula and mixture of chicken and vegetables . 4-6 feeds a day due to pancreatitis which is under control.

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