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  • #61
    Re: BUDDY

    Thanks Anne-Marie! Best wishes for CJ's progress as well.

    CJ's a wonderful looking pup. Nice to read yours posts and see how focused you are on helping CJ get regulated.
    Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

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    • #62
      Re: BUDDY

      Hello!

      I am planning on giving Buddy 3 shots per day instead of the two as the Novolin seems to lose it's power after 9 hours.

      We have been feeding 1 cup food (1/2 cup W/D and 1/2 cup Zeal Honest Kitchen) twice per day at 7am and 7pm and giving 6 units of Novolin at the meals. I also give 1/3 cup broccoli steamed and 1 teaspoon millet before his walks.

      Now I will give 2/3rd cup food (probably 1/3 W/D and 1/3 Honest Kitchen Zeal) 3 times per day at 7am, 3pm and 10pm.

      I will lower Buddies dose of insulin to 4 units three times per day.

      Here has been a typical Buddy curve:

      7am 350 to 400 ( a couple times over 500)
      8am 290
      9am 200
      11am 170
      1pm 160
      3pm 130
      4pm 180
      5pm 225
      7pm 400

      Buddy gets 20 to 30 minutes of exercise at 7:15am, 2pm and 7:15 pm

      I know there are others giving 3 -- even 4 shots per day.

      Any thoughts would be appreciated.

      Thanks!
      Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: BUDDY

        its very possible insulin isnt running out but just a long period of blood sugar dropping for an extended period of time which seems to be about 8 hours and some of the drops are substantial in a short amount of time now the exercise maybe causing some of the drops from the time you posted

        depending on the dog they can be very sensitive to dropping blood sugar and the body will respond with higher sugar

        now spreading things out to 3 meals and shots could be beneficial but you have to watch for overlap i know you feel that insulin is running out but like i discussed there could be other factors

        so a reduction in the dose is a good idea as you discussed it also gives an opportunity for a reset the dose coupled with the exercise and if you are not giving anything with dropping blood sugar from exercise if thats what is occurring could be causing the swings in blood sugar which a reduction in the dose maybe beneficial

        my jesse gets 3 shots but for a much different situation then what you would like to attempt and is specific to jesses situation and has been beneficial

        your testing so you can see how things work out i dont see a problem with giving it a try with a reduction in the dose

        now there is allot of possibilities of tweaking from less insulin and or food for a specific time period

        maybe separate your thinking over those 3 time periods work on one at a time for improvement and step back from the big picture solving one period can help with others thats what i did with jesse her routine evolved overtime with this type of strategy
        Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
        Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

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        • #64
          Re: BUDDY

          Thanks Jesse Girl for such great information.

          We've been adjusting and then watching a couple weeks -- and then adjusting another variable and watching a week -- and then adjusting again, etc for about 5 months now. We just can't seem to keep the morning and eve blood sugar readings down in any consistent manner.

          We've tried giving just 4 units of insulin twice per day and that just spikes the morning and eve numbers all the more.

          We tried 5 units of NPH for a week, 5 1/2 for a week, 6 was the normal, tried 6 1/2 and 7 units and both the 6 1/2 and 7 caused too sharp a drop.

          We tried to lessen the drop with millet and other times with a little more food but it still seems to get down to the Blood Glucose numbers beginning to rise fairly fast at 4pm (and probably 4am as well).

          I've tried ging 100% W/D for three months and then worked towards 100% Honest Kitchen Zeal -- but no luck there either. In fact, amazingly to some perhaps, the 100% Honest Kitchen Zeal at 3 oz each morning and eve seemed to spike the morning numbers to over 600 at times.

          I've tried 1 3/4 teaspoons of millet before each walk and that actually has not seemed to do a whole lot one way or the other, surprisingly.

          Buddy has become almost a pin cushion the past month as we have been focusing on hourly changes as well in his curve to get down to the root causes of the high morning and eve numbers. (we test in his carpals mainly)

          We give his shots in the scruff of the neck. That may not be the most efficent place but the blood sugar drops quickly after the dose non the less.
          Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: BUDDY

            oh i do understand jesse had a very strong drop at onset i thought it would be fairly easy to solve it was not like you tried many different things thats when we split her dose i gave half the dose at mealtime the other half 3 hours later took a bit of time figuring timing and amount meal was given with first shot
            Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
            Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: BUDDY

              Your saga sounds so familiar. I would get good readings either AM or PM, but the other reading she would rise, and felt like I did everything.

              I did find that giving the shot in the flank... I discovered this last spring... that it seemed to last longer, and BG's didn't drop drastically.... But there would be days that it still would occur.

              Another thought, and something that you will need to get your vet on board with, is to use Humulin N, as you will need a prescription. I still use it sparingly... because there are times that Abby needs it, as she runs out of insulin.

              There is a coupon (link below) that will allow 5 free pens. I use the pens, because you end up with more. In addition, insulin starts to wanes after it is open, so I thought I had at least 5 times, instead of three. But I have been using .5 of a unit (started with less than that), and it works wonderfully. Also, I have been using the same pen since late summer. Still has a punch, at 1/2 unit. The rate I am going, I will have insulin for 5 years.

              It seemed like since I started to use it, she has more stable numbers overall. I went about three weeks without any intervention. I just don't think Abby is a stable diabetic...

              http://kwikpenvoucher.humalog.com/form.cfm?WT.srch=1

              Also... here is another link that you use and how I found that millet was Abby's key. You may want to try a few other carbs to see what may Buddy's key, and perhaps you can flatten out that curve, if it is higher.

              http://www.mendosa.com/gi.htm

              Good luck.
              Barb
              Barb & Abby 12/24/1999-12/31/2013 ~ dx 5/10/2011 ~ Forever in my heart ~

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: BUDDY

                Jessie Girl: Thanks. Yes, experimenting is the only way to find out if there is a better method and your persistence and effort really paid off for your dog.

                Abby's Mom: Thank you and thanks for the links as well! The Humulog idea is a route we may pursue if we can't find another way to level out Buddy's curve.

                As you mention, probably would only need a tiny bit to get him along to the evening shot. Also as Jessie Girl mentions, I think we need to experiment more to make sure Buddy is actually running out of insulin.

                Great link to the Mendosa site. I have tried some spaghetti and banana as well.

                I may also try giving a tiny bit of a carb food at times during the day and before exercise. Then if this keeps the curve elevated, we can try increasing the insulin again back to 6 1/2 or 7.

                Right now, Buddy doesn't get anything to eat between mealtimes except for the millet before he walks. Maybe I need to increase this alittle before exercise time as well as try giving a little millet around noon.

                As of today, I'm on track to give three shots and three meals unless somebody convinces me otherwise.

                Thanks Again!
                Last edited by buddy; 03-15-2013, 08:32 AM.
                Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: BUDDY

                  Sorry to hear you are still having problems with Buddys levels. Like Barb I found that injecting CJ in the flank seems to work better than scruff of the neck. In fact his numbers am and pm are lower - usually around 7-11 it varies but he can still throw me a high 16 or so. Because CJ has pancreatitis I am feeding him 4 times per day and although I never thought it would work for his numbers - it does! He still only gets 2 shots per day and I give them to him with his first feed am and pm then approx 2hrs later he gets his 2nd feed. He will never have perfect numbers but he is doing great and has put on lots of weight!! he is starting to look chubby again . As they say here every dog is different and its just a matter of tweaking things for your Buddy. I know you have tried a lot of things - I did too - hang in there you will find the right combination .
                  Hoping the 3 shots and feeds a day help you out.
                  Anne-Marie
                  Anne-Marie and CJ Westie , Born 13 Jan 2004, dx May 2012, Weight 9.5kg, 6 iu Caninsulin Twice daily. Mixture of food - baby formula and mixture of chicken and vegetables . 4-6 feeds a day due to pancreatitis which is under control.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: BUDDY

                    Thanks Anne-Marie!

                    That is very interesting -- you feeding him 4 times with only 2 shots. That is another alternative that we thought about: add a small treat and increase treat of millet prior to walk -- which may allow us to increase insulin to 7 units and that may create a longer lasting effect to the insulin. We'd need to blunt the sharp plunge so the increase in millet and a treat at noon.

                    Yes, the flank area for the shot that Abby's Mom referenced is a great idea. I tried it a lot last fall but couldn't find a spot where Buddy wasn't sensitive to the shot. He had lost about 10 pounds and was abit thin.

                    I will try that again, though. It is just so easy in the scruff of the neck, I've put it off.
                    Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Vetsulin Results

                      Hello Everyone,

                      As many know, Vetsulin was approved back in April of this year and after doing some research on the Vetsulin.com -- veterinarian tab, I felt it might be worthwhile for my dog.

                      So I switched my 7 year old miniature Schnauzer, Buddy, from Novolin N to Vetsulin a week ago. We have had poor results and wondering if we should just move back to Novolin N. We started Buddy at 75% of his 6 units of Novolin N = 4.5 units Vetsulin. His readings have gotten worse as days go by this week and the last two days we've had him at 5.25 Vetsulin (up from 4.5 when we started 7 days ago) and yet the BG readings are worse:

                      Today he was:

                      7am 640
                      9am 620

                      7-7-13 mini curve:
                      7am 630
                      10am 270
                      2:20 330
                      7pm 615

                      7-6-13 readings:

                      7am 560
                      7pm 366
                      10:30 pm 240

                      7-4-13 readings:
                      7am: 310
                      9am: 276
                      1pm 321
                      7pm 614
                      10pm 270

                      Historical background if interested:

                      I had Buddy on Novolin N from Oct of 2012 (when diagnosed) to July, this year.

                      I switched him over to Vetsulin because I could never get a smooth BG curve: typical results after months of trying about everything, and settling on 6 units of Novolin N for past 2 months were:

                      7am 400
                      9am 300
                      11am 200
                      1pm 150
                      3pm 200
                      5pm 250
                      7pm 350

                      If I gave more than 6 units Novolin his blood sugar would frequently drop to below 100 -- a bit too low.

                      We've tried a few diets but for past 3 months have settled on (twice per day) :

                      1 can spring water sardines = 150 calories
                      1/2 cup Alaskan salmon = 100 cal
                      1/2 cup sweet potatoes = 80 cal
                      1/2 cup green beans/broccoli = 20 cal
                      1 egg = 70 calories
                      1/4 cup W/D = 61 cal
                      Total = 480 cal

                      First thing some might think is that we are moving him around too much in regards to insulin and diet -- because consistency is a key factor in regulation. However, we do leave things steady for a few weeks or so before changing things. The reason we're thinking about moving back to Novolin is the very poor results so far.

                      A couple other things:

                      Buddy did have cataract surgery 6 weeks ago and so he now has 2 new lenses and he takes some eye ointment but I was told by the Vet that it shouldn't affect his BG much. The Vet ophthalmologist was excellent and the surgery was a great success and Buddy sees like a 1 year old.

                      Buddy showed high liver enzymes 2 months ago but took an antibiotic for a month.
                      Last edited by buddy; 07-08-2013, 07:31 AM. Reason: adding some more info
                      Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: BUDDY

                        hello

                        I have a 20 lb dog. I had to give less food as his bg would rise.
                        I started at 1 cup went to 3/4 , and am now at 1/2 cup twice a day every 12 hours.

                        I think 2 cups a day if 2 different foods is spiking his bg.

                        a good read is Bogies thread.

                        also injecting in the flank instead of the scruff of the neck will help with the lows
                        rotating from right side to left side am and pm.

                        I would keep Buddy at 5 1/4 iu, reduce his food to 1/2 cup twice a day of one brand of dog food, give some green beans midway and inject in the flank and do a curve in 7 days.

                        just my thoughts, you can check with your vet.
                        hope this helps.

                        mo
                        Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
                        20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: BUDDY

                          I actually see the same type of curve with both the Vetsulin and the Novolin, except that the Vetsulin would need to be increased... you did state that you had lowered the dosage, and I also believe that the size of the needles are different as well.

                          I had a similar issue with Abby, early on, and that she had some unregulated numbers, and high fasting numbers. Abby would climb about 150 pts in 15 mins. towards the end of her insulin cycle. It would seem she would only get about 10 hrs worth of effectiveness, or at best 11 hrs. After a shot, she would drop 200 pts in 1 hr. Very similar to Buddy on 7/7/13 curve. Note that drop from 630 to 270 within three hours is way too much. You want to have him slowly go down... You may start to see where all the numbers go down, because insulin is being used a little more regularly, than dramatically.

                          Perhaps some additional fiber and a complex carb added to his meals,to make sure that he doesn't drop too fast or low. What we are aiming for is a flatter curve. It seems wrong in some sense, because you cherish those low numbers, but once you have a flat curve, you can then safely raise the dose of insulin.

                          I played around with millet, and phyllsium husk ... and now I only have Abby on Phyllsium husk - I level off 1/2 tsp, and that will make sure she doesn't take a nose dive after her shot... in fact it will raise her a bit.

                          Good luck..
                          Barb
                          Barb & Abby 12/24/1999-12/31/2013 ~ dx 5/10/2011 ~ Forever in my heart ~

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: BUDDY

                            Thanks Riliey and Mo and Abbey's Mom for the very helpful information.

                            Riliey and Mo -- Bogie's thread is very helpful -- also, I'd like to try the flank but Buddy has not been real interested in taking a shot back there. We'll see if I can't persuade otherwise.

                            Abby's Mom -- Yes, the BG drops can be sharp. I brought up two needles but I am only quoting the U-40 syringe quantity (4.5 to 5.25) as not to confuse. Thanks for the phyllsium husk info. I had not heard of and it may come in very handy.
                            Buddy is a 7 year old miniature Schnauzer who originally weighed 30 pounds and now weighs 21 pounds. He eats 1/4 cup Honest Kitchen Zeal, 3/4 cup baked Alaskan Salmon, 1/4 cup Royal Canin Diabetic, 1/2 cup green bean or broccoli, plus 1 inch banana twice daily and is given 5 units Novolin N twice daily after his meals when he eats at 7 am and 7 pm.

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