Fox Terrier with diabetes

[Patty]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Randy,
So good to hear he did ok overnight. I was worried with the huge drop in a short period of time.

What is Bandit currently eating?

Dogs are different than humans in some ways regarding diabetes. They can usually use the insulin to cover both meals and basal needs but some adjustments may be needed along the way to balance insulin/food/exercise out. Doses can also take 3-5, sometimes 7 days to settle in. This is because the residual insulin from one shot to the next builds up in the background and can have a lowering effect over time.

So best advice is to be patient, take it slow. Many people here move in 1/2 or even 1/4 unit increments. You can also get syringes with 1/2 unit markings on them at Walmart http://www.relion.com/diabetes/syringes

An ideal target range for dogs is 100-200mg/dl. Many dogs can't achieve that tight of control however and 100-250mg/dl is just fine. The renal threshold in dogs is about 180 before they start spilling glucose into the urine. Dogs also don't have the same side effects that people do when it comes to diabetes. The main concern with dogs is cataract development.

I know you said your wife's a nurse so I thought I'd highlight some differences. I know I had to 'forget' some of the human diabetes knowledge I had and learn the differences that exist in canine diabetes.

Take care!
Patty

[Cebe]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Randy, you did good. Cutting the dose and going to 2x a day was a good move. The rest will come with time, and it sounds like y'all are on top of it.

Vets have differing attitudes and educations about diabetes, but I bet your old school vet will be willing to work with you on all of this, as I'm sure he's seen a lot in the country.

The goal for Bandit is consistency - feeding every 12 hours and insulin with the food, every 12 hours.

the dose of insulin really depends on the dog, his activities, and his food. So, you have to feel your way with home testing to fine tune it, but it can be done.

[randyddowns]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Ok. My wife just called and Bandit was 123 bg at noon. Approx. 2.5 to 3 units of humulin N at 6am. I'm using a relion bg meter and I have read it probably reads 30 to 50 points low. The Alphatrax II should be here by Fri. We have him and the other dogs on Evo small bites. Also give him and the others some canned food ceaser in the morning and evening. Usually eggs in the morning also. They have been spoiled by getting a couple of milk bones a day each. We try to feed him about an hour or so before the shot. Last nite he had cheddar cheese, baked chicken, and some evo. Also 1/2 a can of ceasar. The only fast acting carbs he gets is the milk bones twice a day. They have wheat. My wife works for a Pediatrician. Used to work for a Psychiatrist. Not much training in Diabetes. She did work family practice for a while. I work at GE as an EE. I posted some pics of my babies.

[Cebe]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

The milk bones might throw the numbers off when you get things more settled, so you may want to explore other treat options (and there are other options - frozen green beans, smaller treats, pure protein treats, etc.).

And, unless your dog throws up his food, there's no need to delay the shot after feeding. It's my view that it's best to give a shot right after the dog finishes eating his food.

[randyddowns]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Here is an update on Bandit. Our diabetic Fox Terrier. He is much better acting than last Friday when we took him to the vet. I got the Alpha Trak II today and after our walk checked his bg. It was 177. I fed him and of course the other 2 and will give him 3 units. His last injection was at 6am this morning. 3 units. Did the walk lower his bg that much or is he getting better regulated? This morning he was off the scale but we were using the human glucometer. I believe I am using the Alpha correctly. Look at the test strip code for dogs, it is 35 on my bottle, and push the c button until it says 35 on the lcd display. The book confirms this. I am just shocked it was 177 before feeding and injection after the walk.

[Cebe]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Unfortunately a single test doesn't tell us anything except what's happening at that moment. A dog's blood glucose will go up and down throughout the day. The only way to know what the 177 really means is to look at that number compared to other tests taken at other times during the day.

A curve is a series of BG tests taken every two hours from right before food/shot, to right before the evening food/shot. That tells you how a dog processes the insulin and food.

For example, a well regulated dog might have these numbers:

6am Fasting (right before food and shot) 150 (then food and shot given)
8am 185
10 am 175
12 pm 165
2 pm 160
4 pm 150
6 pm 145

Those are just random numbers, but they tell us that the dog is processing both insulin and food well. Now, these are ideal (if still a little high) numbers. My dog doesn't do anything like this. But, only with a series of tests can you know what's going on.

You can do a few mini curves until you have time to do a full curve. I would test before breakfast/shot and then test in about 2 hours and then test again right before dinner/shot. That might give you some idea of what's going on.

Oh, and yes - exercise can drop a dog significantly, but you don't know what his BG was before he went for his walk. So, it's hard to tell how the exercise affected him.

[jesse girl]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

as cebe said one number gives very little info but i do believe the most important number is before shot

as far as exercise dogs can drop quite dramatically during active insulin but to determine that you need to test before the walk and after trying to determine the best time where exercise has the least affect on blood sugar is prudent

exercise is like dosing insulin you slowly work into it keeping it light in the beginning stay close to home carry liquid sugar with you at all times

we actually had to give my jesse some honey before walks because she would drop at any time we went but over time her body adapted and we dont need to do that anymore we do keep her exercise consistent time of day and amount day in day out

[randyddowns]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

I was just not sure about the new meter and the exercise thrown into the equation. It's amazing how things change. 4pm I came in from work and we had a walk. I came in and checked him and he had a 177bg. He had fasted since his feeding at 6am. I fed him around 4:20 and by 5:20 his bg was 430. Injection was at 6pm. We will check again with the new meter at 10pm or so. I'm hoping to start an hourly profile Friday. My wife is off and we will have 4 days to chart him. He is so much better since last friday. The one picture I posted he looked like he was done. Now he is back to his old self. No drinking and urinating copious amounts. He is back to being alpha of the other 2. I understand no charting is a problem. But we have went from 1 7 unit shot the vet prescribed to 2 a day 3 units. We will chart so we can get the best dosage. His symptoms have mostly gone away and he has picked up a little weight. He had lost 2.5 lb. We now have an alpha trak II and continue to learn. I am so thankful for the info here and the support. I will say I have nothing but respect for diabetics now.

[CraigM]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Welcome to the wonderful world of blood glucose testing!

As you've probably read, "every dog (situation) is different". Not only that, some times they trick us by not doing the same thing two days in a row; if fact they can occasionally do the opposite of what we expect.

Some dogs rise 100+ points after a meal, stay high for several hours, then come down. We can sometimes "correct" this with a food change, or insulin type change.

Snacks / treats can affect BG levels. Annie gets a cut frozen (yes, frozen) green bean after a mid-day blood test. I'm sure there are many other "good" treats, but need to think about anything they eat.

Some drop big after exercise, a few rise. Exercise isn't just walking / jogging. Annie gets exercise by going crazy with a new toy, or by chewing on bone / rawhide.

Medications can play havoc with BG. Doesn't matter if they are oral, eye, ear! Anytime Annie gets anything new put into / on her I look it up on the internet and don't go crazy if I see wonky numbers.

Infections are more common in diabetics ("bugs" love the sugar?). The infection itself can raise BG, then the medications can also mess with the numbers.

Seems like a lot of things to watch, but it will only take a little while to figure out what normally should happen. Guess what I'm saying is if you get some higher than normal numbers, take a moment to think what might have caused it.

Remember "testing is fun!"

Yes, sounds like you have "coded" the AlphaTrak2 correctly.

[CraigM]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

I fed him around 4:20 and by 5:20 his bg was 430. Injection was at 6pm.

You fed at 4:20pm, but didn't inject until 6pm? Well, you've learned Bandit digests his food into sugar pretty fast. Most inject right after, or during, the meal. Of course we are talking meals 12 hours apart. Would be difficult to regulate if fed at random times, or fed without insulin to go along with it.

[randyddowns]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Just glad to have an outlet. He's back to chasing Cookie the female Jack around the house wanting to be amorous. They are all fixed. He's 13 and still thinks she's sweet. Then she will lay down and he will lick her face. Then he will lick Patch's face. I hope that doesn't cause the glucose to go up...

[Cebe]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

4pm I came in from work and we had a walk. I came in and checked him and he had a 177bg. He had fasted since his feeding at 6am. I fed him around 4:20 and by 5:20 his bg was 430. Injection was at 6pm.

I have to urge you to give the food and shot at the same time, and keep feedings/shots 12 hours apart. So, tonight, it would have been better to withhold food until 6, feed, and then give the shot right after.

I've used this metaphor before: Insulin and food are like two race horses in match race, and the goal is for the horse to come down to the wire at the same time. If you feed without giving the shot, the food horse is going to have a big lead on the insulin horse, and the bgs will go up. Actually, BG will likely shoot up greatly. Then the insulin horse kicks in and starts to bring the bg down and then may overtake the food horse, leading to possibly unsafe low bg, and this may lead to dramatic shifts in bg which is not good. So, I strongly recommend not separating the food and the shot. They go hand in hand and they need each other to get the proper function.

[CraigM]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

Not trying to beat you up, but here are two more reasons to inject right after, or during the meal.

You saw that Bandit's BG soared after eating and without insulin working. That "sugar" is circulating through the body looking for someplace to go. Some of it will possibly find its way into the eyes and helps form cataracts. Not all diabetic pups develop cataracts and blindness, but many do. Annie had cataracts within a few months and required surgery.

Also, if the sugar / nutrients from the food doesn't have insulin, it won't move into the cells. Weight loss even though the pup is eating.

Glad to see you are mastering the testing. Where are you testing?

[Cebe]

Re: Fox Terrier with diabetes

ooh, did I come off too strong? Not my intention. Just friendly urging.