NansPups - Zoe with her odd curve

[Nan's Pups]

Merging two threads

[Nan's Pups]

ZOE with Her Odd Curve

Hi all, this is the old "Nan's Pups" who has 2 diabetic dogs on hand, well, now 3. I have been managing MJ and Oliver's diabetes from 2014. I can't get a reset password email sent, not sure why, so I had to register a new account.

A little history: MJ and Oliver are brothers, Rat Terriers, they were both diagnosed with diabetes in 2014 at age of 6, 3 months apart. They are very well regulated on a diet of mixture Wysong Epgen and cooked lentils. MJ is neutered male, Oliver is intact male. On Novolin-N.

Zoe is 12 yrs of age and was diagnosed on 14th of May. She's spayed female, 23lbs, and she's MJ and Oliver's mother. I thought I had extensive experiences in regulating canine diabetes, but seem having trouble to figure out what's going on with Zoe. Today I did her first curve, it looks like insulin is not working. She's receiving Novolin-N 5.5U/12hr. Meal time 7am / 7pm.

During the last 2 weeks, I also spot testing her BG at Nadir time, 1pm to 3pm. It's very very odd. The first few days she seemed to have good response to insulin, and then Nadir reading just kept rising.

[k9diabetes]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

The insulin is working - she just has a “mountain” curve instead of a valley. I actually really like mountain curves because lowest blood sugar occurs at mealtime and you don’t have to worry about low blood sugar in between.

It would be good to try to flatten it some. Maybe replace part of the meal with something merging more rapidly digested and see if that helps. It takes some experimentation to see if the insulin is absorbed late or if the food is doing heated slowly and the peak midday is coming from sugar going into the bloodstream hours after the meal and injection.

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

The insulin is working - she just has a “mountain” curve instead of a valley. I actually really like mountain curves because lowest blood sugar occurs at mealtime and you don’t have to worry about low blood sugar in between.

It would be good to try to flatten it some. Maybe replace part of the meal with something merging more rapidly digested and see if that helps. It takes some experimentation to see if the insulin is absorbed late or if the food is doing heated slowly and the peak midday is coming from sugar going into the bloodstream hours after the meal and injection.

I use my own recipe of mixture of food which I am kind of proud of and it's been doing great with MJ and Oliver. Their BG never spike up after eating 2 to 4 hours. I am guess it's the "low carb" and "high fiber" are at work. However, the recipe is not working exactly the same with Zoe. You know what worries me the most? It's she would have a not so bad reading of BG, such as 179, at 1pm 4 days after being on insulin, and then the number just kept climbing. The insulin has been increase 0.5U, and the same thing happened.

BTW, when she was diagnosed, the vet said she had UTI in present because there are small blood clots in her urine (that's the reason I brought her to the vet, actually didn't notice much excessive drinking or urination). Her blood work came out all normal, but high BG. She's on antibiotic for 10 days(no refill), but I notice she still licks her lady part a lot. Wondering if UTI is till there.

[Raysaint]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

My dog changed to a curve similar to that. His thyroid was a little high, so I figured that was the reason. Thyroid is back to normal, and curve stayed like that, with flat sugars after eating and then a big rise around noon, when insulin is starting to strengthen.
Spot check yesterday showed a big rise after eating, so maybe he's going back to a bowl curve. I have to do more spot checks.
But this shows that curve patterns do change. Not sure why, but a few tweaks here and there can usually bring results back to satisfactory numbers within each 12 hour period.

[jesse girl]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

welcome back and glad things have been going well with your other diabetic pups .

Wow 3 diabetic dogs at one time . That has to be a record . Tami had 2 .

The problem maybe the UTI as infections are notorious for affecting blood sugar
and sometime knowing when that has cleared can be difficult to determine

I kind of lean to females maybe a bit more difficult to regulate even with a spay its possible there are still hormones present to cause some havoc and UTIs are more common in females

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

I am worried about her turning blind. If this continues, I will bring her back to the vet. The vet is not really keen on finding things out, not I am complaining, I like the vet, he probably thinks I already knew so much that he doesn't have to educate me any further.

I am worried about after increase insulin, I see a pattern it takes slight effect for the initial few days and then all go back up to the 300 again. That's why at the first, when I post the curve image, I suspected the insulin is not working on her.

Fortunately, for me, it's easy to rule out if insulin has turned bad, I have more than 1 diabetic dogs, I test them all together, when I see one having high number and the other doesn't, I know the insulin is fine.

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

welcome back and glad things have been going well with your other diabetic pups .

Wow 3 diabetic dogs at one time . That has to be a record . Tami had 2 .

The problem maybe the UTI as infections are notorious for affecting blood sugar
and sometime knowing when that has cleared can be difficult to determine

I kind of lean to females maybe a bit more difficult to regulate even with a spay its possible there are still hormones present to cause some havoc and UTIs are more common in females

If she does still have UTI, what we should see in urine analysis and blood work? According to the vet, everything looks fine. He though the numbers on liver and kidney might be escalated due to being diabetic, however those number came out fine as well.

[jesse girl]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

well you might be able to add a short or fast acting insulin like r if you see the run up after feeding . Now this may just be a temporary situation until the possible infection clears

I have used this method with jesse on occasion when needed to control periods of higher sugar . Now you have to be careful if something was causing higher sugar and that has cleared the faster acting insulin will need to be removed

you may also need to reduce the N insulin with the addition of R

Some people use it as a permanent solution to a rise in sugar after feeding and shot with good results

I have also seen raising insulin and seeing good results then turning not so good after a couple days . For my jesse she only can handle so much insulin at one time and reacts to more than that dose . Now like i said Zoes problem maybe temporary do to infection and raising may make it worse

As far as eyesight i had a thought that the prescription foods may make a dog more prone to cataracts . Now i have no scientific knowledge and professionals may say i am nuts and maybe i am but what i seen on the forum over the years i think its worth bringing up . My jesse ate one can of WD and that was it and has been on homemade since . She has been diabetic for over 8 years and has kept her sight ( knock on wood ) she has not had perfect blood sugar but adequate and her sugar was very high for weeks in the beginning . So there has to be a reason and we are seeing more dogs keeping there sight and for a longer time from what i seen here years ago . the big difference many people have decided to pass on the prescription diets . Now those diets have worked well for controlling blood sugar so i dont discount them for there benefits they do have . Another big factor has been testing blood sugar at home

just a thought

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

If it's necessary or permanent solution I will add R, however I think, in my opinion, there's something going on that prevents her from absorbing the insulin like she should. It's not possible for the BG to rise over 300 within interaction of insulin with my feeding recipe. For MJ and Oliver from time to time I had to add carbs in meals just to compensate the slow rising after meals.

I use cooked lentil with coconut oil, Wysong Epgon Canine/Feline, amount varies for each dog. BGs on boys never never rise up sky high after meals, well they did when MJ was on the Royal Canin.

It's not like I am lazy, just I have to manage 3, that's 6 shorts and 6 meals a day, I am trying not to get things too complicated. I still have another 2 healthy ones to take care, between whom one is deaf. And, didn't mention it, I rescued a litter of cats, now I have 3 of them on hands.

[jesse girl]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

oh my a full house

yes you would like to keep it less complicated with 3 diabetic dogs . Your fortunate to have 2 that had similar results to insulin now having the third that would do the same might be in the miracle class

Tami had 2 diabetic dogs that needed 2 different insulin's because one of her dogs i believe was allergic to NPH and vetsulin at the time was being removed off the shelves . It was panic time for her until vetsulin was allowed back on the shelves

I am sure you will find your sea legs with Zoe . My dad use to be the big helper in the neighborhood . Would do anything for anybody . My mom would say if you want someone to help you look for the busiest person helping others as they are the people that usually wants to help . I guess you are kind of like that and people like you always seem to find time to help

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

oh my a full house

yes you would like to keep it less complicated with 3 diabetic dogs . Your fortunate to have 2 that had similar results to insulin now having the third that would do the same might be in the miracle class

Tami had 2 diabetic dogs that needed 2 different insulin's because one of her dogs i believe was allergic to NPH and vetsulin at the time was being removed off the shelves . It was panic time for her until vetsulin was allowed back on the shelves

I am sure you will find your sea legs with Zoe . My dad use to be the big helper in the neighborhood . Would do anything for anybody . My mom would say if you want someone to help you look for the busiest person helping others as they are the people that usually wants to help . I guess you are kind of like that and people like you always seem to find time to help

About the cats, I really didn't have much choice. The mom cat brought 4 and half kittens to my door - 4 kittens with a half corpse missing the front limp and head, apparently they'd been attacked by some animal and she still carried it around.

Oh, I just saw you don't think raising insulin is a good idea. I wish I could do a curve everyday. 4 days after she started to take insulin, I tested her at 1pm, which I though it's the Nadir time like the boys, it was 179. Not bad, but I failed to realized that might be the high point according to her curve right now. If that's the case, she needs decrease the insulin amount. I just don't know, and I am afraid if I drop insulin dosage she'd suffer a few days more of the high BG. There's no obvious evident of Somogyi effect, I mean for Somogyi effect to take place I should see a drastic dip before the rise, shouldn't I? Zoe's curve is kind of smooth.

[jesse girl]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

About the cats, I really didn't have much choice. The mom cat brought 4 and half kittens to my door - 4 kittens with a half corpse missing the front limp and head, apparently they'd been attacked by some animal and she still carried it around.

Oh, I just saw you don't think raising insulin is a good idea. I wish I could do a curve everyday. 4 days after she started to take insulin, I tested her at 1pm, which I though it's the Nadir time like the boys, it was 179. Not bad, but I failed to realized that might be the high point according to her curve right now. If that's the case, she needs decrease the insulin amount. I just don't know, and I am afraid if I drop insulin dosage she'd suffer a few days more of the high BG. There's no obvious evident of Somogyi effect, I mean for Somogyi effect to take place I should see a drastic dip before the rise, shouldn't I? Zoe's curve is kind of smooth.

you might want to just hold the dose your giving now and let it settle a bit longer maybe a week or 2 with no changes except if you see low blood sugar . Maybe the infection is still clearing up and that would help things over time

You dont have to do a curve everyday but test the times you think the nadir is . i test everyday before i give a dose of insulin

[Nan's Pups]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

I know, I can't really do curve everyday even if I want to, I have to work. You know they invented the inferred BG reader in the 90s? You just shoot a ray of inferred through the ear lop and you get an instant readings. They were priced about $700 for the hand held machine. But, it has never turned into production because obviously a life supply of meters, strips, lancets make much more than a $700 device with 10 years of usage life. I know there's a company in MA was working on pushing it to the market. I sent them an email years ago, saying I'd glad to be the volunteer should they needed someone for test trial.

[jesse girl]

Re: ZOE with Her Odd Curve

wow that would be a game changer for testing sugar . The thing about all these wonderful upgrades at the beginning of there introduction to the market place with all its fanfare and then it seems to vanish

At one time we had a cure for K9 diabetes with some European treatment . haven't heard a peep

We have seen kinostat to prevent cataracts in diabetic dogs and some members participated in the trial but its still not for sale and use which they say they have to clear up some paperwork issues .

I have used discount human strips for jesse and buy off ebay . I estimate i have spent $ 1200 on jesses 8 years of diabetes monitoring . I may spend $ 25 a month on jesses diabetes thanks mostly to Walmart . Now her initial diagnosis with complications cost close to 10 grand