My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

[Cara Sandler]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Dogs can absolutely get stressed at the vets office and it can significantly affect their blood sugar. Have you considered doing the curve at home yourself?

[k9diabetes]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

He is correct, though, that it's not all that common in dogs while even nondiabetic cats can have somewhat elevated blood sugar from vet stress.

A dog who is stressed at the vet doesn't necessarily get higher blood sugar. Our dog's blood sugar always tended to go low while at the vet.

In my experience over the past 11 years, most dogs' curves are not affected by stress. They can be affected by other things, though, such as the change in routine. Very active dogs who spend a whole day in a kennel may metabolize food and insulin differently.

Do you live close enough to do a "drive-by" curve?

Rather than staying at the vet, if you are reasonably close by, you can drive them over every couple of hours for a blood draw.

Or learn to test at home and do the curve yourself.

Natalie

[BMarra]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Thank you all for your replies.

For the first one I think it's best the vet do it as I still have so much to learn and haven't gotten a meter or test strips yet as I'm really waiting to see how this diabetes plays out once we know for sure the pancreatitis is healed.

My husband and I both work so taking her there every 2 hours on a weekday won't work and they don't do that test on weekends as they have shorter hours.

Guess I'll just have to hope for the best that she copes okay and that I'm not picking up a very frazzled pup at day's end!

What is the consensus on the most effective insulin? She's on the Vetsulin but I really think my vet is charging more than the norm. First vial was $58 from one of their distributors - does this sound right?

Also, any advice of where to get the U-40 syringes?

Thanks again everyone!
Brenda

[k9diabetes]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

I don't think there is a "most effective insulin." Both NPH and Vetsulin work well with most dogs. Vetsulin is a lot more expensive because the 10 ml bottle offers only 400 units of insulin (U40) while a 10 ml bottle of NPH offers 1,000 units and can be purchased at Walmart as Relion Novolin N for just $25. Humulin N is expensive too... I think retail from a pharmacy it's something like $80. But still 2.5 times more units than Vetsulin.

Natalie

[amydunn19]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

I think stress from the vet is common and can affect results based on the dog. Maggie always drops at the vet so her numbers are lower than normal. But, she can't be put in a kennel. My vet always calls and tells me to come get her because she is being crazy.

I think the best results come from home testing as it mimics their everyday life. But, if people don't test at home, numbers have to come from somewhere so it is better than nothing.

My vet doesn't bring in stress and anxiety to the mix - he wants her high enough so she can afford to drop and still be in a good range most of the time. But, she rarely cooperates with him.

I think testing in the beginning is much more important than waiting. I never tested in the beginning and just took my vet at face value. I thought it was all under control. Being blissfully unaware cost my little dog dearly. She was overdosed - she is 11 lbs and on 9 units of insulin. She was having wild swings of blood sugar and she would go sky high and then crash. Finally, she had a seizure and it terrified me and made me angry. At my vet for being an idiot and me for not taking control in the beginning. But, we found an IMS who is really knowledgeable and I taught myself everything about canine diabetes. Not everyone has a horror story to tell but everyone can really become an advocate and know the right questions to ask and become an expert on their own dog.

The hardest part for me was fear that I had to stand up to someone who was supposed to know more than me. When I went to my current vet to say I was testing my dog and it wasn't up for debate, then he was very skeptical but we agreed I would run everything by him before I changed anything. Now, he thinks it is the greatest thing ever and we solve problems over the phone.

[BMarra]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Maggie, thank you for the insulin information. So, if I wanted to change onto the less expensive brand what is the harm in changing insulin especially at this early stage?

Should I wait until the first glucose curve is done and then ask my vet if I can make a change? As it is, I paid $58 for the Vetsulin and am using 10 units/day so I don't see it even lasting 4 weeks.

The discouraging thing is I was told by the vet's office manager, who researched and ordered the insulin for me, that this was the cheapest one. However she didn't mention anything about quantity vs. price but I'm wondering if they went with the small vial now as they may end up changing it on me.

It is so wonderful that you have this forum to help confused people like myself be pointed in a right direction.

Amy, I guess I'll have to take my chances with Lacie being cooped up all day for the test. My vet and I haven't discussed anything about home testing yet but I will certainly be doing so once the glucose curve is done.

I concur that it's very difficult to confront these vets who are supposed to be the pros but they have a lot on their plates and being a vet has to be one of the most difficult jobs in the world. So, one has to wonder when they even have the time to do research and keep on top of current information, etc. I would think & hope that they appreciate owners who do much of that for them but they also have to be open to listening and considering what you're telling them. After all, we know our pets much better than they do.

Can anyone tell me how they handle boarding their diabetic furbabies? We were supposed to go on vacation in June for a week and have a great place where we leave her to play all day and then have her own little cubicle for sleeping but now with having to give her insulin I don't think that will work out. Hate leaving her at the vets as I know she won't be happy there. Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

Brenda

[Abby's Mom]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Can anyone tell me how they handle boarding their diabetic furbabies? We were supposed to go on vacation in June for a week and have a great place where we leave her to play all day and then have her own little cubicle for sleeping but now with having to give her insulin I don't think that will work out. Hate leaving her at the vets as I know she won't be happy there. Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

Brenda

It would be wonderful if we all seem to live in the general vicinity of each other, or had another person that had a diabetic dog, that each could help each other out.

Vet Techs that can come over, are always a favorite, as they already know how to give the shots.

Personally, I had a Pet Sitter that taught how to give shots, and she came over for the scheduled times. I also have some wonderful neighbors that would take Abby during he day and evening, and bring her back for those scheduled times.

Some kennels I know will provide shots, but some can be worrisome because someone is not there all the time.

In many cases, if I could, she travelled with us.

Barb

[BMarra]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Hello All - I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with.

First, I've read conflicting information on whether or not glucosamine and fish/salmon oil can be given to diabetic dogs. I've asked my vet about both and he said to only give about 1/2 tsp. of the salmon oil in a meal and that the glucosamine was fine. I've been giving Lacie a tablet from GNC Pets which is Glucosamine & Chondroiton. However, since her diagnosis two weeks ago I've been withholding the tablet and only give the salmon oil every few days. Can you please tell me what you know about these two supplements.

Secondly, what is the price range to have a glucose curve done at the vets? I have Lacie's first one scheduled for tomorrow and their rate is $135 which I think is very high. They will most likely give me a discount since I've spent so much there already but I told them I'm going to have to learn to do it at home.

Thanks for your support and information.

Sincerely,
Brenda

[k9diabetes]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Our diabetic dog took a glucosamine supplement for a number of years and did not have any problems with his blood sugar from it. It was a veterinary brand, Cosequin, so was strictly limited to those ingredients with nothing else in it.

Some stuff we tried before that from Petco had other things mixed in and it did affect his blood sugar.

Natalie

[amydunn19]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

I have no idea what a curve runs these days because I do my own. I have heard $120-$180 from people on the forum. It really is better all around to do your own at home.

[Judi]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

I paid anywhere from $95 to $120 for our curves 3 years ago. The larger vet office charged so much per test as the day went on. We cancelled one curve at 2:00 since she was steadily in the 400's that day.

Learning to do it yourself will save you $ and you will get better results as the dog won't be off schedule or off routine by being stuck at the vet's office.

Even though my vet didn't want me to test till he had my dog regulated, I just started doing it and emailing him my curves. He'd call me and we'd discuss her insulin needs. Occasionally I think they would bill me $45 for the telephone consults which I thought was very fair. But we paid for at least 12 curves before I started testing myself. I counted them one day. ouch.

Judi

[BMarra]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Thank you all for your responses.

Guess I will have to tell my vet what all is in the glucosamine tablet to be sure it's ok to give her.

From the prices you gave on the curve, seems my vet is in the ball park then. His regular price is $135 but he may be giving me a bit of a break as I've spent so much there already in just two weeks.

I did get good news yesterday as Lacie's last urine test had no ketones so hopefully the curve today will show that her diabetes is being well controlled.

If anyone out there had the experience where your diabetic pup was thought to have Cushings also I would greatly appreciate your input. I am still baffled by the fact that the insulin alone seems to be working in that she no longer has excessive thirst and urination and sleeps well at night not having to go out until the morning. Trying to figure out that if she does also have Cushings why the insulin would be controlling the symptoms. Haven't been able to get a clear answer on that question.

One more thing, can anyone recommend a doggy treat that is ok for diabetes or is it just best to stick with green beans & carrots? I know there is a diabetic cookie company on the web but it only sells in bulk as I understood it.

Thank you all again!
Brenda

[Judi]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Hi Brenda: a lot of people made their own dried chicken jerky. for lots of dogs (mine included), little protein treats didn't mess with their sugar too much. We ordered Etta Says Duck Jerky from amazon for after her shot treats.

My Jenny had cushings and diabetes. Every dog is different but cushings is really hard to diagnose. There is some test that can rule it out but I don't remember what it is.

The 2 tests they normally do are only 80% accurate. All they do is measure cortisol levels and cortisol can be raised if a dog's body is stressed from something like uncontrolled diabetes too. We've seen a lot of dogs around here get inaccurate cushings dianosis. The deal is, the cushings meds are not a cure, they only relieve the symptoms. so, if lacie isn't showing any symptoms I'd hold off. the cushings tests are expensive and she'd have to stay at the vet for at least 4 hours.

My Jenny got up to 7 units of insulin when she weighed 8 pounds before we started the cushings meds. After her cortisol level went down she only needed about 3 units of insulin so I think your instincts are right that if the insulin is working, it may not be cushings.

Jenny also had a huge pot belly no matter how much weight she lost. Crappy skin and the really ravenous appetite.

we have a sister site for cushings where there are some incredibly knowledgeable people.

but it sounds like Lacie is on her way. let us know what the curve results are!

Judi

here is a link to the cushings site: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

[amydunn19]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Brenda,

I was told by several vets along the way I should have her tested for Cushings but I never did because she never had any symptoms outside of the ones that are regular diabetes symptoms. She didn't look like it(no potbelly, not overweight) and back in those days, her appetite was nonexistent. I think some vets run into a roadblock and it seems everybody that has a diabetic dog gets a Cushings comment at some point from a vet. Luckily, when I got with my current vet, he noticed in her file that Cushings was mentioned. He said he would bet she was not Cushings. We never even bothered testing her.

I think that attempting to get her diabetes under control is the best plan. If they start throwing Cushings meds at her and she doesn't have Cushings, it is very detrimental. It sounds like insulin is working for her. I would just give it some time.

I use real meat treats most of the time and have only recently started using some carby treats like biscuits. Until you can test yourself, I would stay away from biscuit like treats - for most dogs they raise blood sugar. Maggie is a dog who runs low frequently and out of the blue, so those types of treats are pretty good for her. I use Bravo Buffalo training treats, bites of low fat string cheese, pieces of boiled chicken, a spoon or two of meat baby food, etc.

Carrots can be pretty sugary so most avoid them - green beans are good. I never use them because my picky girl spits them out.

I know many people have given glucosamine and I don't recall it being blamed for higher blood sugar. Everything we give them has potential to cause higher sugar - very individual responses.

[BMarra]

Re: My Bichon just diagnosed with diabetes/pancreatitis (possible Cushings)

Judy & Amy - thank you so much for your replies.

So, Lacie had her first glucose curve yesterday and doc called me this morning with results. He told me that her high was 444 in the a.m. and low was 280 at 3:30 pm. I fed her at 6:30 am & gave 4.5 units of Vetsulin at 6:40 then brought her into vets at 7:30 so I'm assuming the first draw was taken around 8:00 am although I haven't yet confirmed the time (will get copy of results later).

What do you think of these results as I've read where the glucose level will go up after a meal?

He told me to increase her to 5.5 units. Is this too much of an increase at one time as I read a post that said they should be increased only 1/2 unit at a time and this would be a whole unit?

He is also going to change her food from Hills R/D to I/D as it is lower fat and less fiber.

We will get another glucose draw on Saturday at 2:30 to see what that shows.

As far as the Cushings, thank you for the forum info however I am on that forum also as originally we were looking at the diagnosis being just Cushings and nothing about diabetes.

Even with the glucose levels still high her symptoms have been controlled which is even more confusing to me. The only "symptom" that I still see is a very good appetite.

In a few weeks he also wants to check thyroid as she does have a low T4.

Guess I will have to take away her carrots even though she loves them and has been eating them since a puppy. Green beans it is for now!

Vet did ok her taking the glucosamine/chondroitin tablets so keeping fingers crossed they don't elevate her sugar.

Thanks again,
Brenda