How the Hank Turns

[Shellie]

Hello! First time here and there is already so much information swimming around in my head..and a million questions!

My baby, Hank, 11 year old cairn terrier mix, just got diagnosed this last week. Likely caused by pred use for his allergies. (and yes...lots of guilt over that but not productive and it was what he had to have at the time...hindsight...bleh!) He ended up in the hospital with a glucose over 500 and ketones thru the roof. Luckily, the vet was able to stabilize him...no ketones left but the glucose was still over 500 when I brought him home last Friday. Currently, he is on 3 units of NPH twice a day. W/D formula food laced with whatever I can get him to eat since he is a terribly fussy eater..always has been! If only cat food were acceptable! haha

So two main questions to start with...first...I know he needs to eat before I give him his injection and I've managed to get some food into him right before and/or a bit more after his shot. My vet suggested small meals thru-out the day but I seem to be hearing that two meals with insulin after is optimal. Does he have to have insulin with every meal? (and no...not give him extra but pare down the meals to match his shots only.) Only two meals a day will likely not happen since he's so darn picky.

My second question...I'm not terribly happy with the urine glucose results so am trying to use the blood testing kit. Luckily, I have the most patient dog on the planet since I've stuck him quite a few times and only managed to get a quarter drop of blood out of one ear so far. Tried the lip four or five times, tried his back end four or five times, tried the ear twice, tried his inner thigh and his forearm. Tried different depths and still...nada. I KNOW it works...practiced on myself several times before trying him. Watched numerous videos...HELP!

There is so much to learn and so much information...it is easy to get overwhelmed but just listening to all of you has made things better already! I know we can get this worked out and he'll be just fine. Thanks so much!

Shell

[CarolW]

Re: New to Diabetes

Hi Shell and Hank,

With your interest and determination, you and Hank will do really, really well, and have Hank feeling a lot better soon.

Could you tell us how much Hank weighs? And, if you can, if your vet ran a curve on Hank - say, the latest, could you get those numbers and post them here?

I am SO partial to terriers of any sort! Had them for some 35 years, then switched to Havanese after my last terrier, Kumbi, died - NOT of diabetes, but of cancer. Thought I was going for an easy dog - but - haha; it was not to be! However, if she had diabetes (she doesn't); she would behave well for testing; I can tell, because she allows grooming well. Even brushing her teeth. Took some practice, though.

In general, or, usually, people find the ear a difficult place to get blood for testing. I think there's a chance if you were to read through my pages on testing Kumbi, you'd find something to assist you with testing the "lip." It's not really the lip, of course, but the inner lining of the mouth that you prick.

Whether you use the lip or some other location, such as on the back near the base of the tail (another popular location for testing), or maybe even the carpal pad (I assume Hank doesn't have elbow calluses?), I believe if you persist, and keep asking questions, we can help you strike gold, as Tiggy's Grandma recently called it - and get blood for testing.

Here's our Big Fat Welcome to you and Hank, from Kwali and Kumbi at the Bridge, and Camellia and me here on lowly Earth.

Keep your spirits up! You WILL get there!
Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:11:20 (PDT)

[thedragonslayer]

Re: New to Diabetes

Try his elbows if he has pressure bare spots there. It works great for my Chelsea and I get a drop of blood every time. She now gives me her elbow to test and it has only been six weeks since she was diagnosed.

[CarolW]

Re: New to Diabetes

Oops! Forgot to give you the link to Kumbi's Lip-Stick series!

Here it is:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/bgtest.php

P.S. This is the finest forum on canine diabetes I have ever seen. That's because of the organization - one thread per dog, so we can track a particular dog from the start - and because of the responsibility and accuracy of posting by site-owner and administrator Natalie, and her moderator team, Patty and Peggy. Then the members all tend to follow suit, so we get the best of everything here!

Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:14:50 (PDT)

[beachnut55]

Re: New to Diabetes

Hi Shellie and welcome to this wonderful group. I know that it is important for you dog to have food before/with his insulin. I know some of the more experienced members will chime in to answer your questions. It can be overwhelming, but you can do it.
Shirley

[Shellie]

Re: New to Diabetes

Thanks for the warm welcome! Let's see...Hank weighs about 22 pounds right now...he WAS up to 26 (eh gads!) but with the ketone/glucose issue..he lost four pounds in the first week. That has thankfully stabilized.

Also, we haven't done a curve yet since he's so newly diagnosed. I think my vet is easing us into the whole 'diabetes' thing but I prefer to dive right in which is not a problem since Hank is so cooperative. But I also think that since his glucose has been running in the 300 and up range, won't do much good.

Once I can get blood...I'll talk to the vet and plan on doing it asap since we need to get those levels down and get him regulated. I would love to try the carpal pad but he's not a foot dog...does not like his feet fooled with and at his age, probably won't change. And no elbow pressure spot..darnit! Dogs really do need fingers! hahahaha Oh...but then the trouble they'd get into...

I'll keep trying...and Hank will keep putting up with my fumbling. Just had a nice small meal laced with fishie canned cat food...ooo yummy! haha The things we do for our babies! Thanks again for the assist! I'll keep reading and taking all suggestions!

Shell

[SandyL]

Re: New to Diabetes

Welcome Shell!!

I also have one of the pickiest eaters on the face of the earth and the first few months were a pain in the butt!!! If you want a good laugh, check out the first half of tiggys thread and you'll probably be able to relate
Ideally Hank should get only 2 meals per day or you won't really know if the insulin is working with the food or not. If you give lots of small meals per day, his BG is going to look like a roller coaster and it's not going to make him feel too good. He WILL learn that he's only getting 2 meals but it will take some time. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I would either sit on the floor and hand feed or even feed her with a spoon !!
In a perfect world, they get the exact same meal twice a day followed by their insulin shot but I slowly learned with my Tiggy that I was going to have to work with what she would eat.... Not what she was SUPPOSED to eat. So I went with the calorie theory... As long as I gave her the same amount of calories each meal, I could keep her BG at a pretty even level with no sky
Highs and no crazy lows! She gets different kinds of wet food ( for that picky variety) but I add boiled chicken for protien and additional fiber an carbs. It's like a science experiment with those that are spoiled but it can be done!!!

As for testing, I do it on the base of the tail and found that is the ONLY place that will work for us. What size lancet are you using?? For the bas, you have to use at least a 26 gauge... They have some pretty tuff skin back there.

Again welcome, it will all be very overwhelming at first with frustration and information overload.... But I promise, it will settle and just become a way of life in no time!!


Sandy


highs and no crazy lows.

[Judi]

Re: New to Diabetes

Welcome to the forum! We are using the W/D for Jenny but she is ravenous and will eat anything.

I've been trying to feed her non-diabetic brother the same thing because he really needs to lose weight but he has turned picky on me!

Jenny's eye doctor, who sees a lot of diabetic dogs prefers the Purina OM. It doesn't look as disgusting as the WD but Ranger hated it too. Just a thought though!

I think Yunhee uses a tablespoon of catfood to tempt her Harry, you guys are so smart! I've read of other people baking or barbecuing the W/D

My vet says that picky eaters are the hardest dogs to regulate. I hope you find something that works!

[jesse girl]

Re: New to Diabetes

best case scenario is to have the 12 and 12 routine feed 2 and 2 shots and thats it this routine has proven success for a majority of dogs and is a template for a starting point

trying to change the habit of a dog overnight can be difficult and will take some time I would try to give the 2 meals let your baby eat what he can my jesse is able to have a 1/4 of her dose without food so you could do a sliding scale for how much food is consumed i would talk to your vet on that

its good you are working on home testing because you dont have consistent eating so you its hard to know where the numbers are

I would not raise the dose until you are able to home test and it sounds like you are almost there

do you understand the symptoms of low blood sugar and how to treat it jesse gets anxious nerviness disoriented tail between the legs when seeing this I rub corn syrup on her gums and will give her a teaspoon of corn syrup supplemented with a carb snack carry syrup whever you take your friend it is always good to be prepared

[Shellie]

Re: New to Diabetes

Did read some of Tiggy's early stuff and wow..you sound like me! haha I want to do it all and get it all right and get him regulated and perfect as of yesterday! Nothing like an over achiever for a mom! hahahaha

I think it IS the size of the lancet that is the problem. I draw blood on humans as part of my job in a lab so I know needles a bit and these are nowhere near 26G. I'll see about trying a larger size at the base of his tail.

Poodles...so lucky your dog isn't picky! Sometimes I get the "you don't really expect me to eat THAT, do you?" look and i just cringe. Did try explaining the whole 'dog food for dogs and cat food for cats' concept but I'm pretty sure he tuned me out. haha But as long as I can lace the W/D with a bit of something else...cat food or fancy dog food or chicken...I think we'll manage.

I use the duck strips as well for treats and did get the ok on the cat treat, Greenies, for his rewards. I know, I know...CAT TREATS? Perhaps he was a cat in another life? teehee

Is all very overwhelming and just when I think I might have a handle on it...I realize I'm nowhere near there yet. Listening to everyone just chat about adjustments to dosage and bg curves and this, that and the other thing...you are all amazing! Can't wait til next year when I sound like all of you! Thanks! For just listening to me babble too! Not too many people want to just listen to me and my dog diabetes.

Shell

[Shellie]

Re: New to Diabetes

Yes...do understand symptoms of hypo...scared to death of it so really paid a LOT of attention. I have maple syrup on hand and know to do the rub on gums and under tongue and get them to the vet stat. Honestly tho...with his numbers consistantly high so far...I'm pretty sure I don't have to worry..yet. But since we're not testing regularly except for urine, can't be sure so I am watching him. Thanks for the warning! Always good to be reminded of that...is too easy to get complacent.

Shell

[SandyL]

Re: New to Diabetes

What is it about cat food, cat treats, cat poop... They love it all!! If you need some tricks with the food just hollar.. I've been through I all.

Take a look on the main forum page and there's a video of me testing her tail. I tried EVERY area possible on my little girl before this worked well!! Unfortunately it takes patience and that was something I had to learn

Sandy

[CarolW]

Re: New to Diabetes

Hey Shell!

We'll listen to your babble any time! (from another babbler here!)

Take heart; you'll get there; I have NO doubt about that! might have to be today instead of yesterday [snicker]

Camellia sends her regards to you and Hank, and so do I!

Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:26:38 (PDT)

[Shellie]

Re: New to Diabetes

No cat poop munchies here, thank goodness! I know of dogs that think of litterboxes as snack buffets! Icky!

Well...minor success...FINALLY got a blood sample! Yay! Used his insulin needle! lol In the bum. We got a reading of 536. This was about two hours after his last meal and half an hour after a walk. So really NOT so good.

But he's perky and just ate his 'insulin' meal and got his insulin shot right after. Wanted cuddles and a duck strip. haha Old habits.

Thank you for letting me babble, Carol...and Grandma too!

Shell (and hugs to puppies!) and Hank

[CarolW]

Re: New to Diabetes

Shell - I'm a real scaredy-cat. Or more like a dog, but - when you say, "in the bum" - and using a syringe needle - I really don't know what you mean!

I'd love it if you could reassure me! What size needle are you using? Gauge? Length? and are you sinking the needle all the way, or just pricking the surface? And - are you testing on the back, near the tail - "at the base of the tail"?

By the way, glucometers are meant to test capillary blood for the most part, though I believe I've heard the AlphaTrak can test venous blood as well - maybe there's a special setting for that; I have no idea.

What concerns me is the possible invasiveness - too often! - as we do BG tests, say, minimum for a curve, about 7 times in a day. And lots of people (I never did) test both fastings and also estimated nadir (insulin peak) time wherever that time is estimated to fall in a typical day for your dog.

So, I'm thinking, too many punctures, too deep, maybe the wrong kind of blood for a typical (human) glucometer.

What can you tell me?

At least you DID get a reading! That's a start!

Sun, 21 Aug 2011 22:45:15 (PDT)