Camellia Camelo

[Patty]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Interesting about the Pill Pockets. Glad you figured it out Carol

[k9diabetes]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Are you using the hypoallergenic Pill Pockets? That's what we are using with Katie. It's nice having that option.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Hey, Natalie! I had no idea such a thing existed as Hypoallergenic Pill Pockets!

I'll ask around, and see what I can find! Thanks so much for the tip!

There was a day when I would have turned up my nose at Pill Pockets, thinking, any good Human-Mum should be able to shove a pill down a dog's or cat's throat.

Hey, why cause further unhappiness and trauma with an animal, when there are such things as Pill Pockets! Maybe I've grown up a little in intervening years. Hahaha!

I see we have another Havanese on the forum - or two, since there's a younger brother, so to speak. I haven't looked closely at the picture, but the dog looks of coloring similar to Camellia's, at least in some ways.

Thanks again for all you do on the forum(s), Natalie. You are truly a treasure for all of us!
Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:02:43 (PST) - getting ready for bed, in Reform-Carol-mode. To take better care of Camellia, we take care of self, too!

[pgcor]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Hi Carol - glad that event "has passed" for Camellia! I'm wondering if the biosponge could work for Pip?

No one has definitively diagnosed him with IBS, but couldn't that firm up his stools?

If oil is the culprit - is the hypoallergenic pill pockets oil free?

I just read about bilberry and cataracts....there's so much I don't know, that sometimes I feel I'm a day late and a dollar short!

Pam

[k9diabetes]

Re: Camellia Camelo

The Hypallergenic is duck and green pea so a novel protein source. Same primary ingredients as Katie's food. I don't think the Pill Pockets themselves are greasy - Carol's got oily somehow.

Gus would never take pills with the pockets but Katie does great, including taking Flagyl, which is bitter and kind of a chunky pill. I'm very thankful for that. These two cats would fight to the death to avoid having something shoved down their throats.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Pam - Biosponge is, I believe, intended as a short-term solution to draw out toxins from the gut. Camellia didn't HAVE toxins in her gut, thank goodness; her fecal exam showed that. However it can also help firm up a soft or liquid stool, say, given for 7 to 10 days.

About the oily Pill Pockets, I don't know what caused that, unless it was the natural oil in the Beef (think tallow) kind of leaking out and sinking to the bottom of the packets. My vets reported they found several packets like that, I guess, in the beef pill pockets, which are what I've been using.

Receptionist Debbie - one of my great buddies at the clinic, suggested duck for the next time I buy Pill Pockets - wonder if that's duck and green pea! Wouldn't that be great!

I took Camellia off the Biosponge today as her stool has been good for two days, and, so far, so good. Until I finish up the current packet (I'm cutting them in half, to make them last longer), I'll merely mop up any oil by blotting them thoroughly in tissues, before I put the pills in and wrap those pills.

Natalie - it's one thing to shove pills down a dog's throat - say, all but MinPins - haha! - and quite another, to shove pills down a cat's throat! Teeth, claws, everything! Yikes!

We do NOT want cat-scratch fever, either, nor any cat-bites, which are notorious for getting infected, no matter how clean the cat's mouth.

I DO like having a supply of Biosponge on hand, though I'd generally check with my vet before beginning to give it. It does keep for years! Essentially, it's purified clay, as far as I can tell.

I used up all of Kwali's from 2009, and had to get a new container for Camellia after that, of which I used, say, about a quarter to finish off this session, so I have a supply in case I need it later (well, for Camellia, of course!)

Pam, I'm following you about Pip, and always wishing you the best with him - and, Natalie, the same for you and Jack.

Love and hugs,
to which Camellia adds her wagging tail,
Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:43:40 (PST)

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo - Update: off all Pill Pockets

Well, my beloved Forum buddies, we weren't even halfway through the packet of Duck and Pea Pill Pockets before I knew I had to stop using Pill Pockets entirely, as Camellia continued having very loose stools. i even went so far as to cut the Pill Pockets in quarters (to reduce the amount of the stuff), and filling in the top with Natural Balance Lamb Roll bits, but that stuff didn't work very well.

And we went back on Biosponge.

Had to get a re-fill on the Biosponge. Poor Camellia!

Interesting - I could generally tell when her stool was still going to be loose in the morning. I'd go to bed. Camellia would, very shortly, begin to call to me quite insistently, barking. She likes to sleep on the sofa in the Great Room (the only other room), rather than on my bed with me.

I'd to to bed, turn off the light, and Camellia would start calling me. I'd turn the light back on, get up, turn on the outside light, put my jacket on, and invite Camellia out with me to go down in the yard and do her stuff.

No response. No trip into the yard. So I'd go back to bed. Sometimes, Camellia would then call again. One night, NOT responding to the call, when I came out in the morning, I discovered a deposit by the refrigerator.

Camellia WASN'T KIDDING ME!

That particular night, we'd had a huge thunderstorm, and it was absolutely pouring rain; otherwise, I believe Camellia would have gone out on her own, and I was glad she hadn't done so, and gotten totally soaked and also in a bit of possible danger - lots of tall trees right around the house.

I have definitely learned that dogs are very straight with their communications, especially when WE are straight with our responses. Dogs will tell us when they have a real need.

To continue the pill-giving saga: forced to change my ways, I bought a couple of cans of wet food, same brand I'm feeding dry - Natural Balance (chicken recipe, for adults and puppies). I asked myself why I hadn't thought of this before, and I suppose it was because I loved using the Pill Pockets, and Camellia liked to eat them - it's just that neither of us cared for the results of that!

With Kwali and Kumbi, I used their canned food, with my Three-Gob technique, to give pills.

Here's a description of my Three-Gob technique.

It's slightly messy, but very effective. It helps if the canned food isn't too liquid, and will form into gobs [ha!]

Gob 1- pick up in the hand; just a little gob

Gob 2 - loaded - pick up in hand and wrap pills in it;

Gob 3 - pill-free, moderate size

Procedure
------------

My hands are smallish, so I sometimes set out these gobs on a saucer within my reach, but not Kumbi's (nor Kwali's, either!)

I'd first wrap the pills in Gob 2; then, holding that in my hand, pick up Gob 1 as well, with Gob 3 immediately available on the saucer. If possible, though, it helps to hold all three Gobs in the same hand; just make sure you know which is the loaded one.

The point of Gob 3 is to get the dog to swallow again, on top of the loaded Gob 2; that helps ensure those pills get swallowed, and it's why you need to feed Gob 3 immediately after Gob 2.

If I managed to hold all three Gobs at once, that helped, holding them in order, 1, 2, 3, in my hand.

1) feed Gob 1.

2) Immediately, feed Gob 2, holding Gob 3 at the ready.

3) Feed Gob 3.

This method depends on the dog being able and willing to eat. Kumbi adored his canned food, and only very rarely had eating problems. We were very lucky that way.

Of course, Kwali had to have HER three Gobs, too, but they weren't loaded with pills! (Unless she too was taking medication!)

This Gob technique can be used at any time, but my dogs' pills were generally given with food, so I'd do this immediately before putting their meals down for them.

After I got the canned food for Camellia, I decanted it into a used (washed) canning jar, and put a (used, washed) lid and screw-top on the jar, to help keep it fresh.

I dipped into the jar with a baby spoon, to make the loaded Gob, pushed the pills into it, and folded the Gob over on top of itself.

Gave Gob 1. So far, so good. Held the spoon out for Camellia to lick off Gob 2. She licked off the spoon very effectively, and I didn't even need Gob 3.

For a day or two, then, I used this One-Gob technique, but then the food changed - having compacted a bit in the jar. I learned to loosen it up with the spoon, and also, to pile the food really high on the spoon, over the pills.

Camellia is SO cooperative! She began to pick up the Gob in her teeth - VERY good way to do it! It does have to be piled good and high on the spoon for this to work well, and now, I'm holding the spoon-bowl sideways to her mouth; this seems to make it easier for her to pick up the food off the spoon.

Mummy - we learn these things together, don't we! (00)

We do indeed, Camellia! ;-^

And we have another update story, too - bath-related. Coming up.

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:49:32 (PST)

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo - Dogs tell the truth

I've lived with dogs for over 50 of my 75+ years. It took me a lot of years to learn that dogs ALWAYS tell the truth. They cannot lie; it's not in their natures. They can and do tell and play jokes; the healthier the dog, the better the dog can be at telling jokes. But we can see the joking in their body language and behavior.

(For instance, the feint - with two dogs, one having a mutually-desired item, the other dog may bark and run to the door. The dog with the item then often follows, deserting the item - whereupon, its having been left behind [abandoned], it becomes, by dog-rules, fair game for the feinting dog.)

One of my personal rules for myself is, DO NOT CHASE THE DOG, EVER, to get hold of it for some unwanted procedure, whether it's BG testing, injections, or, for Camellia, the dreaded Baths or Sprays.

There are ways we can engage a dog's cooperation; treats can be a big help with this, but don't always work, especially, if combined with the rather unconscious human Look that means, I'm about to do something to you.

Yesterday, Camellia was scheduled (by me) for a weekly bath. I COULD NOT catch her yesterday. I'd tried to minimize the cues that I was ready to bathe her. I wear my boots when I bathe her. She wouldn't allow me near her yesterday, not even to get her harness off after the walk - until I took my boots off, 3.5 hours after we returned from the walk.

When I took my boots off, in she came. She went into the bedroom, and jumped up on the bed, which, for her, is a gesture, but not a real action, of trying to escape unwanted procedures. As always, I had treats in my pocket, in a little container. I gave Camellia a treat, and then took her harness off. Then I cuddled her gently.

Decided I COULD NOT betray her gesture of cooperation, and so, she escaped having a bath yesterday.

Then I thought about the whole thing. Always, you know, I learn by hindsight, as I believe we all do.

We'd had a couple of days with really scary events for Camellia, on our walks. Big dogs had rushed her; it was so bad two days ago that she expressed her anal glands.

Camellia wasn't ABLE to cope with having a bath on top of all that, yesterday. Postponing till today works for us on the bath-spray schedule, since there are 7 (uneven number of) days in a week, and she gets a weekly bath, and twice-weekly sprays.

She simply felt too stressed to add a bath to all the OTHER stresses of the last few days. Likely, had I bathed her yesterday, it would have weakened her immune system just a bit. Not badly, but the wise thing to do was to delay the bath by a day.

And I thought about how humans typically interpret dog-behavior, often, without really consulting the dog.

There are times we have to do things to dogs, regardless, and giving insulin injections is one of those times. So to substitute for the stress, it helps to refine our methods to the point, first, where injections become reliably painless, and second, we HOPE - where they're not so scary after all.

BG-testing falls into a similar dogegory. As I recently remarked in the Diabetes Discussion forum, I didn't test Kumbi as religiously as most here test. But when I really felt the need, I did test him. I was able to "catch" him when need be, largely because he was so cooperative despite his hatred of Procedures.

Camellia is quite similar about bathing. I can usually "catch" her, even though she knows a bath is coming, because she's basically sweet and cooperative, same as Kumbi was.

I'm glad it finally dawned on me that Camellia truly wasn't up to having a bath yesterday. I was able to accommodate her for that - a bath is chilling, no matter what I do (no dryer; I dry with towels).

Today, I had no difficulty "catching" Camellia after her walk, even though I still had my boots on! Dear, sweet, Camellia.

She just needed time to come down from the worst stress, before she could submit to having a bath.

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:19:18 (PST)

[Judi]

Re: Camellia Camelo

poor Camellia being rushed by big dogs! hugs to her and to you.

Ranger does the feint to Jenny ALL THE TIME. He barks at the window like he sees a cat or a rabbit and she runs over to check! I love that you mentioned that.

I'm glad your girl had a less stressful bath today and I hope her skin is continuing to improve. Judi

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Thanks for your sympathy, Judi. Camellia had been similarly rushed by another big dog a couple of days before. No fun for her. Every such event is a setback.

She copes, somehow; recovers in some terms, eventually. But being rushed by big dogs helps cement her idea that dogs are dangerous to her.
Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:50:50 (PST)

[Patty]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Ali doesn't like to be rushed by dogs either and she's a big dog. It can make walks worrisome at times. Hope you both had a good rest of the day.

[Shellie]

Re: Camellia Camelo

I get so nervous at the dogs rushing at us, my tendency is to pick up Hank which is probably the worst thing I could do! But we've been attacked by several large (and badly trained...not the breed's fault) pit bulls in the area that escape a lot. They are great with people but apparantly see anything smaller as prey and they haven't had that trained out of them. Certainly makes ALL the pits around here look bad!

But I digress...I'm glad Cam is ok! I know what you mean about not stressing them when they have already had a tough time. And listening to them is important. I rarely force Hank to do anything (other than going MY way on a walk now and again)...even when he doens't want to do his blood tests...I coax rather than force. If he ever really gave me a hard time and it wasn't NECESSARY...I'd forgo it. You have to listen and it's awesome when you DO get it! LOL

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Patty - dogs have rules mong themselves, for avoiding conflict. Some dogs never get a chance to learn them - if taken too early from the litter, for instance, or if they have bad experiences as puppies. Even later bad experiences can instill some permanent trauma. Ouch.

Shellie - I like the way you manage things with Hank. Sometimes, coaxing is the way to go. Yeah; I'd forgo bathing Camellia if I could - but she REALLY needs those baths. She was so good yesterday - I was only a day late, and managed to do the spray after her coat was dry.

It DOES help that finally her gut seems well-settled, so I just took her off Biosponge this morning, and we'll see how things go.

It's SO cute when Camellia takes, with her teeth, a good Gob off the spoon, when that part of the Gob has her Benadryl (generic) in it! She's getting quite good at it; we both need practice - me, in how to load the spoon and the pills; she, in how to take it effectively and swallow, pills and all!

As far as I can, I keep up schedules, using ritual and routine, just as I would do for a diabetic dog.

Kumbi taught me so many good lessons! So did Kwali, in her own way.

And I still use Calendarscope (program for PCs) to help me stay on-schedule. Fabulous program.

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/calendarscope.php

The program continues in development, and now, we're up to version 5.5. Don't know what I'd do without it! Though my body now "knows" the schedule, so if the power fails, so my computer can't be on, since I'm home essentially all the time, I can pretty well stay on schedule.

You do okay, Mummy. Besides, if you didn't, I would REMIND YOU! (00)

Why, so you would, Camellia! ;-^
Thu, 9 Feb 2012 06:52:43 (PST)

[CarolW]

Re: Camellia Camelo is Five today-Ages of Wisdom

Dear Camellia,

Congratulations on reaching the Third Age of Wisdom - you are five years old today! Happy Birthday to you! ;-^

Thanks, Mummy! It feels good to be five! (00)

Yep, I HAVE reached the Third Age of Wisdom - there are two big dogs in a car in our driveway, barking. I did go out and check, and barked some, but now I've settled into my favorite place on the sofa, and I'm relaxing. (00)

Sure enough, my sweet Camellia - you REALLY are growing up! I posted about the Three Ages of Wisdom - times when dogs rather suddenly demonstrate increases in wisdom (in my experience) - did this on the Havanese forum I found about a month ago. And there's a reply waiting for me there, which says that can't be, because Havanese are natural clowns - lifelong. Well, I ask you, Camellia - what conflict is there between being wise and being a clown? ;-^

Gosh, Mummy, I don't see any conflict at all! You know, you're just as much a clown as I am. (00)

Well, Camellia, some people might not think I'm wise. ;-^

At least you're wise enough to take good care of me, even if I don't always ENJOY that! (00)

True, Camellia. Maybe I should learn to clown my way through your baths. ;-^

Good thought, Mummy. I could stand a little entertainment while I'm standing in my Tub. (00)

Don't know what I could cook up, Camellia. Maybe some kind of special dog toy for you to hang onto while I'm soaping and massaging you? ;-^

You KNOW I don't play with toys, Mummy. I'm just TOO wise to do that. So what are the other two ages of wisdom? (00)

Two is the first, Camellia, and Three is the second. I've always noticed strong indications of sudden increase in wisdom at those ages. Of course, when YOU turned Two, and later, Three, I hadn't met you yet! ;-^

In a way, Mummy, it feels as though we've known each other all my life. (00)

I sorta feel that way too, Camellia. We have at least a little fun every day, don't we? ;-^

Pretty much, Mummy. I dance at least a bit, daily. (00)

And I do too, Camellia, dancing with you. We have fun, don't we! ; -^

We do, Mummy. Is this an inane conversation, or what? (00)

Perfectly normal conversation, my sweet Camellia, for the k9diabetes online forum! ;-^

Love and hugs, licks and wags, to All! (00)
Love and hugs, licks and wags, to All! ;-^

My signature is shorter than yours! ;-^
By one Character! (00)
Sun, 4 Mar 2012 14:58:05 (PST)

[Patty]

Re: Camellia Camelo

Happy Birthday to you Camellia!!! Hope you have a great day