Eddie Bear, RIP

[momofdecker]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Wanted to follow up from my earlier post. Date day with the daughter - didn't have a lot of posting time earlier. It does seem many lab/mixes have presented with leg weakness. My Decker included. He had on/off again rear leg weakness since his diagnosis in Nov. 2011, though never to the point where he could not use his rear legs.

In May 2012 he lost is vision to cataracts. Around the same time we noticed a sway in his walk, but having no prior experience with a blind dog, had thought it was due to his loss of sight. Took us a good three weeks to figure out the sway was not normal. Sway was followed by nail scraping, loss of balance, front paw knuckling, front and rear leg crossing. He also carried his head low and we had attributed that to the blindness as well (thinking he was using his sense of smell more).

Ended up taking him to a neurologist in Oct and learned he has a lesion in his neck (C1-C5). Didn't run all the tests to figure out what may be causing it. We are treating with pain management. He has good days and bad days but is continually off balance and falls numerous times a day. Positive news is that it rarely slows him down.

Long story short - Having waited almost a year after noticing Decker's rear leg weakness (it did come and go), we'll never know if there was something we could have addressed early on that may have prevented him from getting to the point where he is now. I like Natalie's suggestion of having Eddie evaluated by a neurologist if you have access to one.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hey there, Just saw your thread. I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if i repeat others or cover ground you already know.

I also have an EPI dog and although I was headed to bed i wanted to jump in and ask if you have done the TAMU protocol for the injectable B12? EPI dogs don't have the Intrisic Factor to be able to absorb the vitamin from oral supplements. There are 2 brands of oral supplements that come with the intrinsic factor in it, but i would probably want to do the injectable route in addition to either the Wonderlabs or Metagenics B12 with Intrinsic Factor.

here is a good link for the EPI:

http://www.epi4dogs.com/apps/forums/

you should be able to access the TAMU protocol under the B12 section.

If the b12 levels are not adequate the body cannot absorb the nutrition which along with diabetes would affect weight loss. If the b12 levels are low, as they are raised it will change how much the body absorbs the food therefore changing how much insulin the body needs.

Welcome!

Tara

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Sorry - I have one more quick question which is worrying me a bit.
Eddie has the same amount of food and insulin morning and evening but in the evening he seems to have a phase of getting a bit uncomfortable and panting for a while (which he doesn't usually do at all) between 3 and 5 hours after tea and insulin. It then wears off and he is ok for the rest of the night.

Does anyone have any idea what might be causing this? (I appreciate it's difficult without any idea where his BG is at the time)

Thanks
Antonia

I'm wondering are you around to notice if this panting happens after the breakfast meal. With my epi girl Ruby, the enzymes for the epi cause the bgs to sky rocket after food requiring a fast acting insulin to be added to the usual insulin.

I do home test and it has been invaluable in managing these 2 disease together.

Tara

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Thanks for the overnight replies. We're doing a glucose curve today so should get some better information by the end of the day.

Eddie does have extra B12; I think he needs a lot of it due to his EPI and at the time of his diagnosis he was having a run of weekly injections. I am also giving him a daily Metagenics B12 tablet and now he is on Methyl B12 tablets also.

Decker's symptoms sound a bit different to Eddie's in that I don't think he has balance issues but more just a weakness or numbness in his back legs. I am not sure how easy it will be to find a neurologist but we may have to explore that if it doesn't seem to be neuropathy. I am currently inclined to think it is that, especially since others', eg Blackjack's, symptoms sound almost identical to Eddie's.

There's a lot to think about and when I review it all, I can see that we have made a lot of changes as we have tried different approaches (he's had antibiotics, steroids (not a lot and none now), blood pressure pills and different doses of insulin, a day on a drip and another being left empty for scan/Xrays, and changes in his food) all in less than three weeks since diagnosis. Craig said we need to be consistent and really that is the last thing we have been so far..... I think maybe we need to calm it all down a bit!

I am very grateful for you all taking the time to reply to me. This is such a worrying time and your experience and support is incredibly helpful.
Antonia and Eddie

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Tara - sorry I forgot to reply to one of your questions - No he doesn't generally do the panting in the daytime ( I am around to see him all day). I use Lypex (Creon type) enzymes which you don't need to incubate on the food in advance. I think I read somewhere that if you incubate food in advance, that can give them a sugar rush because the food can be absorbed so quickly. His enzymes don't kick in until the food has gone through the stomach (enteric-coated granules) so I think that is less of a risk.
Thanks

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia, Glad to hear you are current on the B12. Hopefully the Methly will help him.

I did try Creon with Ruby, but she still gets the same food rise on it.
Also her poops weren't as good. I still have a bottle left and sometimes I want to give it another try, but as you know once you get an epi dog stable rocking the boat can be scary.

Tara

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy Views on Curve?

Hello again
We did a glucose curve with the vet yesterday and I would be grateful for any views on what it tells us. We found the last and lowest reading a bit surprising. (we measured in mmol/L but I have multiplied the figures by 18 to give the units that you use in the US to make it easier to compare).

8am before food and insulin - 239
8.30 - food and insulin
10am - 316
12 noon - 259
2pm - 277
4pm - 270
6pm - 196 (before food and insulin)

Based on this we have increased his insulin by 1 unit (12%). The numbers seem very flat, although the highs (we have had readings at 430) have gone.
The vet gave him a painkilling injection to see if that improved his legs. It made no difference at all which indicates that it is not a pain problem. I think it is much more that they are just numb.

Any comments on the curve would be appreciated!
Antonia

[Judi]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia, I forget if you are able to test at home yet and am not sure how much insulin Eddie is currently taking. I am a paranoid freak about lows because Jenny has had quite a few.

Where Eddie got down to 196 and you raised him a unit, you may want to keep an eye on him.

Jenny's only sometimes symptom of being too low is trembling back legs. not much help with Eddie's other issues I know. Keep us posted! Judi

[Patty]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

I too would use caution with a 1u increase. If you can measure 1/2u of the Caninsulin, you could always go slower.

Looking like good progress overall. Remind me how long and what dose this is on.

[jenny]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia,
Im fairly new to this and just wanted to welcome you too, If you are only a few weeks into this then those numbers looks pretty great and steady. Looks like you are doing well.

I am in the UK and using canninsulin too with Pippa and she doing well on it, but like Patty and Judi say , its important to only increase by small amounts and then we have always waited a week to recurve and check again. Pippas currently on 6.4 units seems to be pretty stable on this, I opted to follow the go slow and cautious approach of the forum experts and have never regretted it. My initial vet would have increased Pippa too much and I hate to think of her having hypos and becoming unwell, epecially as I work out of the home.

I wonder if you have considered trying to test yourself at home, I have found it easier than the injections and Pippa does not mind at all! Its also less stressy for the dogs and cheaper than the vets. It has been a fantastic tool for us in getting Pippa regulated whilst avoiding problems. My vet now likes me to email him my home BG readings and I do this monthly unless problems when Im in contact sooner.

I know that Eddie has other health problems to so you must feel a bit overloaded, but hes a lucky pup to have you working so hard for him!

[jesse girl]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

curve looks good

now curves aren't just about whether the numbers are high or low

i think just as important is trends as you can see eddie drops at the end of his 12 hour cycle and rises at the beginning which gives the appearance he has a mountain type curve

it gives an idea on when to exercise when blood sugar is rising it gives and idea how food is being digested maybe fairly quickly with this type of curve

it gives you quite a bit information once you understand the trends and get more curves to compare to each other it will make things so much easier and you will catch problems before they get out of control

great job

[amholmesy]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hi Antonia

Like Jenny I use Caninsulin for CJ. I totally agree with her to go slow . I would not raise the dose more than 1/2 unit at a time. Then wait for a few days to see how Eddie does . Home testing is the key and had proved invaluable for me in getting CJ to a good level. It also let's you see what's going on with his bg and if it's too low you can give him some honey or a carb treat. Home testing is so helpful when you change the dose of insulin as you can really see what is going on over the first few days - without having to take him to the vet. You are doing really well I know how stressful it all is in the beginning and Eddie has other problems as well as diabetes.

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

Hello and thank you all for your replies. I can't tell you how much it helps being able to discuss Eddie with other people who have experienced the same sort of thing. Apologies for not replying yesterday.
We're not home-testing - yet! The vet has given us some Diastix to monitor urine but I appreciate that that is nothing like as good. I think I had better look at some of the videos on here and then ask the vet for some direction. I am getting a strong message that that is really the way to go and we'd better get on with it!

Jenny - I note your warning about lows. I keep re-reading about how to recognise these - but I guess it all comes back to home-testing. Luckily one of us is here all the time so we monitor him fairly closely (but only a few times during the night).

Patty - Eddie's dose is currently 10 units of Caninsulin twice a day. When I looked back I was surprised how much we have adjusted his dose already. We started on 26 October with 8,after 2 days reduced it to 6 for a week then back up to 8 for 3 days then up to 9 for a week and now up to 10 following the curve. (and this morning for some reason I didn't get all the insulin in so he got a lower dose by accident...ooops! we left it for fear of overdosing him if we tried to make up the dose).

Thanks again for your help - it's amazing!
Antonia

PS I hardly dare say it but we are just wondering if maybe his legs are a tiny, tiny bit better - probably too soon to tell but we're hoping so much!

[Blackjack'smom]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

It does sound like you are getting good numbers and so early after diagnosis! If Eddie is anything like Blackjack was with the hind leg weakness, it will be very small improvements that you notice at first. A few more steps without going down...lifting his leg slightly when he is urinating...enough to think that things are going in the right direction! I hope that you are continuing to see improvement. It didn't come back all at once for us. One thing for certain; this diabetes journey involves A LOT of patience!

[Eddie]

Re: Eddie - leg weakness/ neuropathy

You're right - LOTS of patience needed - I'm learning that already! It's funny that you mention Blackjack lifting his leg; one of the first things that made us think he might be improving yesterday evening was that Eddie tried to lift his leg. He couldn't actually do it but at least he thought he'd try!

Do you give Blackjack B12 Methyl or just the chinese herb remedy that I think I read about on your thread?